Airport.

[Non-Believer]

2 hours ago, Gladys said:

I wonder if anyone in DESC has actually assessed the future needs of the island and come up with a strategy (I know) to tailor education to meet those needs? 

Graduate training schemes have the appearance of being good things to have,  but in many cases, I suspect they are just a way of getting good quality, intelligent candidates on the cheap. Do any schemes actually have a desired outcome?

The private sector professions have a long history of indentures and articles to gain professional qualifications after good quality experience.  Same for trades, learn the theory then test it out in real life until you are proven to be competent. 

The only thing Govt assessed in the last 14 years was how to bin off as much responsibility and expense as possible in order to maintain the financing of entitlements of current Govt incumbents. Everything else was sacrificed, upkeep, public services and future considerations (apart from those of the above); and it's still being done.

Training, Govt apprenticeships and looking towards the staffing needs of the future all got axed. ATC staffing is just the very obvious pinnacle of it because of the stringencies of the requirements of position mean that it can't be painted over.

[Happier diner]

2 hours ago, madmanxpilot said:

No degree required to become an ATCO, and the course you undertake isn’t a degree course as far as I know.

https://www.nats.aero/careers/operations/trainee-air-traffic-controllers/

5 GCSEs at grade C or above is all that’s needed.

I agree it's not that easy to understand. The important points thought as far as I can see are

1. You have to do a year at Farnham 

2. You can't do the training on the IOM

Do you dispute that? 

[Gladys]

14 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

The only thing Govt assessed in the last 14 years was how to bin off as much responsibility and expense as possible in order to maintain the financing of entitlements of current Govt incumbents. Everything else was sacrificed, upkeep, public services and future considerations (apart from those of the above); and it's still being done.

Training, Govt apprenticeships and looking towards the staffing needs of the future all got axed. ATC staffing is just the very obvious pinnacle of it because of the stringencies of the requirements of position mean that it can't be painted over.

I kind of agree.  Government itself must be able to see what kind of skills it will need in the future and prepare plans to meet that requirement.  But, it should also be able to see what education and training will be needed in the private sector to keep the economy growing and evolving. 

The approach seems to be that government provides the environment for the private sector to blossom.  But, does it? It is not by glossy ads or meaningless strategic plans for this or that sector, but simply to provide the education and training needed provide the right workforce for the entire economy to develop and prosper. That element has been entirely missing. 

Going back to the Gas Safe point, I don't know if that training for plumbers has recommenced, but it is a good example.  Why hasn't anyone in Government thought gas is a vital aspect of the transition to fully green energy, either by removal or expansion to utilise the Crogga opportunity, if that ever comes to fruition.  So, you would think that incentivising plumbing firms to train up as many of their staff to be able to deliver either way would be a good move.   But no, we just have another eco-uphill garden warden post created. 

[madmanxpilot]

24 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

Do you dispute that? 

You do your OTJ training here on the IOM. That can take a couple of years.

I’ll ask how long the course is at Farnham as I don’t know.

However, NATS say the following: in the link I previously posted:

The length of college-based training varies depending on a host of factors, including the specialism you take and how quickly you can complete different phases. Most college-based training is completed within a year to eighteen months and includes a combination of practical and theory based sessions.

I hope that helps.

Edited August 17 by madmanxpilot

[WTF]

3 hours ago, Gladys said:

  Or are we going to be ill-prepared for either scenario? 

either ???  more like both and other that joins the options.

[Fat controller]

As an ex ATCO ( Air Traffic Control Officer) I think I'm well placed to comment on ATC training. 

Correct, you do not need a degree to become an ATCO, but neither do you need one to become a pilot.

The training is carried out at specialist training centres, in our case in the UK as it would not be feasible to have a training centre on the IoM  for so few ATCOs. The training generally is interspersed with on job training back at the operational unit you have been assigned to, in this case Ronaldsway. Generally to be fully qualified it takes about 3 years training. 

Believe me it is not easy ( even at a quiet airport like Ronaldsway) and the failure rate is high. I know, I failed one exam and had one second chance which, if I had failed, I would have been out. I passed the second time.

The issue seems to be forward planning of staffing numbers. Bearing in mind the 3 year training lead in then add a couple of years before they are experienced , there needs to be, at minimum, a 5 year staffing plan. That costs...which may be the problem. However better to pay rather than have the disruption that has occured over the past years.

[Gladys]

4 minutes ago, WTF said:

either ???  more like both and other that joins the options.

Well, exactly, so what's the plan to make sure we have a local workforce, at whatever level, to deal with the changes? 

Another example is the gaming sector, are there local courses for gaming software develoment, at any level?  

It seems government just expects all new expertise to be imported, going as quickly as it arrives.

What is needed is almost like the old communist five year plans.  We want to develop Y, creating X jobs, so should train Z locally to meet the demand.  And that is ignoring the obvious ones like education, medics and, dare I say it, public administration. 

The biggest employer is government, but do we have courses to degree level in public administration, or is this another 'learn on the job' areas, with all the cultural perpetuation that results? 

 

[Non-Believer]

2 hours ago, Gladys said:

I kind of agree.  Government itself must be able to see what kind of skills it will need in the future and prepare plans to meet that requirement.  But, it should also be able to see what education and training will be needed in the private sector to keep the economy growing and evolving. 

The approach seems to be that government provides the environment for the private sector to blossom.  But, does it? It is not by glossy ads or meaningless strategic plans for this or that sector, but simply to provide the education and training needed provide the right workforce for the entire economy to develop and prosper. That element has been entirely missing. 

Going back to the Gas Safe point, I don't know if that training for plumbers has recommenced, but it is a good example.  Why hasn't anyone in Government thought gas is a vital aspect of the transition to fully green energy, either by removal or expansion to utilise the Crogga opportunity, if that ever comes to fruition.  So, you would think that incentivising plumbing firms to train up as many of their staff to be able to deliver either way would be a good move.   But no, we just have another eco-uphill garden warden post created. 

The only thing that took (and is still taking) priority was the short term interests and future bennies of Govt employees; particularly in the CS.

Future considerations were axed (ATC for example and forward thinking of training and staffing, pan-Govt), liquid pension funds of statutory boards and other Govt bodies were assimilated and raped, just to make sure that near-future entitlements of Central Govt were maintained - and it still left us with a £40M pa gap.

I honestly don't think that much of the local population know or realise just how much they are being expected to carry in cuts and taxation burden, because one thing is for sure, none of the entitlement has or is being cut for those recipients.

Edited August 17 by Non-Believer
Typo

[Fat controller]

One a second thread of this discussion. The last local person who was Airport Director was Tom Corlett, an extremeny competent man and a great boss. Gordon Sweetapple came after and, again was an honorable bloke doing a good job. 

After that???????

The Civil Service Commission years ago stated there was no local qualified enough to be promoted into Airport Management. I know two local Manxies who had to leave the IoM and who ended up having very high International careers. Do you not think they could have done a good job at Ronaldsway given a chance?

Moral of the story...the grass is not always greener on the other side of the recruitment fence. Give the locals a chance.

[Non-Believer]

17 minutes ago, Fat controller said:

The Civil Service Commission years ago stated there was no local qualified enough to be promoted into Airport Management.

And duly gave us Reynolds and Spake. Which says volumes for the judgement of the Civil Service Commission, in one instance alone.

[Happier diner]

8 hours ago, Gladys said:

Well, exactly, so what's the plan to make sure we have a local workforce, at whatever level, to deal with the changes? 

Another example is the gaming sector, are there local courses for gaming software develoment, at any level?  

It seems government just expects all new expertise to be imported, going as quickly as it arrives.

What is needed is almost like the old communist five year plans.  We want to develop Y, creating X jobs, so should train Z locally to meet the demand.  And that is ignoring the obvious ones like education, medics and, dare I say it, public administration. 

The biggest employer is government, but do we have courses to degree level in public administration, or is this another 'learn on the job' areas, with all the cultural perpetuation that results? 

 

You have wandered off the flight path a little😂

Much of the gaming sector employee are self trained nerds. There are gaming degrees but they are often entry qualifications to the industry. Perhaps there is an opportunity though for sure. 

One issue for us is that many students want to study in the UK and beyond just to get off the rock. Providing on island training and education is not always easy. Many proposed courses are cancelled due to lack of interest. 

[Gladys]

19 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

You have wandered off the flight path a little😂

Much of the gaming sector employee are self trained nerds. There are gaming degrees but they are often entry qualifications to the industry. Perhaps there is an opportunity though for sure. 

One issue for us is that many students want to study in the UK and beyond just to get off the rock. Providing on island training and education is not always easy. Many proposed courses are cancelled due to lack of interest. 

Yes, I understand there are challenges and training/qualifications in all disciplines cannot be provided here, but the point is that there seems to be no plan to actively encourage homegrown talent in any sphere to meet the needs of the island.  

If courses are cancelled because of a lack of interest was there any research to determine demand or requirement in the first place?  

[asitis]

Someone enlightened me on one of the problems we face across many sectors, this is the omnipotence of Government HR and recruitment. Recruitment boils down to a tick list on interview, which could well be fine, IF, and it's a big IF, the research behind the tick boxes makes them relevant to the roles . This in itself requires, imo, sound advice to HR about what is required and the skill set to achieve it. This interlocks with what, I think MMP said some posts ago, where people are dependent on having the right information, from other people who actually know ! I think it true to say that we have an ego driven CS who are spectacularly poor at listening to others outside of the bubble, thus some recruitment we have seen into senior posts has been very poor, and or driven by nepotism. fwiw.

[Albert Tatlock]

The gaming sector is of course not just about nerds. If you look at some of the larger companies based here  (Pokerstars, Microgaming and Derivco size) you will find around 150 different job titles across 400 people.

They need, as do other large companies in other sectors, the finance, HR, compliance, sales, marketing, project, planning (and numerous other disciplines) required to run any complex organisation.

Whether those job titles are island based or are remote/hybrid roles based anywhere in the world is becoming more and more irrelevant these days. A lot of nerdy work can be outsourced fairly easily, to other reliable organisations around the world...with cost reductions achieved utilising cloud technologies.

Outsourcing is going a similar route for other disciplines too, such as compliance, HR, marketing etc. nevermind the myriad of new software as a service offerings that businesses can utilise.

It's possible now for one person, who has enough money for the setup process, and to pay for any specialist expertise he needs to employ, to create a fully functional international business in a couple of hours whilst sat in Starbucks. With only the directors based locally.

The role the government plays is to encourage those businesses (and other businesses supporting other large companies around the world) to be tax based here and employ more pople based on island. The more employed people they have based locally, the more income tax, NI and VAT income the government collect.

Where the government has failed is in terms of infrastructure and who they are allowing to settle here. Because the result is extortionate rent and house prices, and dysfunctional services such as the airport, health and dentistry. This all simply leads to higher pay demands to recruit anyone to live here. This is why even many loyal large companies based here for years are being forced to restructure and do many elements of their work elsewhere.

 

 

 

 

 

[Derek Flint]

13 hours ago, A fool and his money..... said:

Good. As what?

As an ATCO. Joined after A levels. Still there 12 years later