Airport.

[Happier diner]

1 hour ago, Gladys said:

Yes, I understand there are challenges and training/qualifications in all disciplines cannot be provided here, but the point is that there seems to be no plan to actively encourage homegrown talent in any sphere to meet the needs of the island.  

If courses are cancelled because of a lack of interest was there any research to determine demand or requirement in the first place?  

I think there is a plan but it seems to lack imagination. Every year there is a fair to which schools are invited and on island firms show there wares. 

Can you think of a single trade/occupation/skill that we need that would justify the provision of on island training/education that we don't have already?

Its a genuine question. If you or anyone else can suggest one then I am sure the college would be delighted to know. 

[A fool and his money.....]

12 hours ago, Gladys said:

 

What is needed is almost like the old communist five year plans.  We want to develop Y, creating X jobs, so should train Z locally to meet the demand.  And that is ignoring the obvious ones like education, medics and, dare I say it, public administration.

 

I agree, you would think they are obvious ones, although government obviously do not. The last two years they've made a huge fanfare of training 4 teachers for shortage subject - however now the funding has quietly been dropped - unlike the monumentally generous relocation packages for the same positions, which include £500 per month for two years housing allowance, ie considerably more than the training cost.

[Gladys]

19 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

I think there is a plan but it seems to lack imagination. Every year there is a fair to which schools are invited and on island firms show there wares. 

Can you think of a single trade/occupation/skill that we need that would justify the provision of on island training/education that we don't have already?

Its a genuine question. If you or anyone else can suggest one then I am sure the college would be delighted to know. 

I have already quoted a couple, Has Safe, which may have been reinstated, and also a re-jig to the trades apprenticeship schemes. 

My point was that there seems to be no strategy to look at the economy,  identify where there are skills gaps, whether on-island training can be provided and incentivise enrolment. 

The student funding model could also be adapted to encourage those to take up courses in the UK for skills needed here but where training/qualifications are not provided here and to incentivise a return to the island. 

Like I say, no strategic view and action plan, other than the numerous strategies which are full of aspirations and catch phrases, but no concrete actions and targets.  The old SMART model for an action plan.  

[Fat controller]

23 hours ago, Non-Believer said:

And duly gave us Reynolds and Spake. Which says volumes for the judgement of the Civil Service Commission, in one instance alone.

Exactly the point! Cannot point the blame 100% at the CSC.....they take their advice from the "professional management" !!  wherever that has been for the past 25 years! 

 

[Banker]

Imagine the outcry on here & Facebook by the usual suspects if this happened here!
 

https://guernseypress.com/news/2024/08/20/late-night-flight-is-turned-back-90-seconds-from-landing/

[asitis]

2 hours ago, Banker said:

Imagine the outcry on here & Facebook by the usual suspects if this happened here!
 

https://guernseypress.com/news/2024/08/20/late-night-flight-is-turned-back-90-seconds-from-landing/

Quite rightly too, bloody common sense ain't common ! Everywhere is infested with people who have no ability to think merely obey in a robotic manner ! Even air crew on long haul stuff have opportunities to extend duty hours in circumstances which are sensible. 1.5 miles from touchdown FFS.

Edited August 20 by asitis

[madmanxpilot]

18 minutes ago, asitis said:

Quite rightly too, bloody common sense ain't common ! Everywhere is infested with people who have no ability to think merely obey in a robotic manner ! Even air crew on long haul stuff have opportunities to extend duty hours in circumstances which are sensible. 1.5 miles from touchdown FFS.

If a controller here allowed a plane to land in the same scenario, would they get the backing from management? I’m not so sure, so would not be surprised at a similar go around being instructed by the controller through fear of disciplinary action.

For sure in the good old days it wouldn’t have been an issue, but with the obsession with rules based micromanagement and blame culture these days, things have changed.

 

[x-in-man]

Gary started his new job early?

[LooseChange]

The bind boggles as just how confidently people suggest the solutions when they clearly have zero knowledge or experience of how air traffic controllers are recruited and trained.

In order to qualify ab initio (from scratch) to work as an air traffic controller at Ronaldsway Airport (EGNS) takes the following:

1. Take and pass the aptitude tests.  IOM Civil Service previously used NATS (who run airports such as Heathrow) and the FEAST tests (the Eurocontrol tests).  These are by no means a walk in the park and very few applicants will have the necessary aptitude.

2. Be medically fit enough to be a controller.  More or less the same medical requirements that are required to be a pilot.  The medical certificate can be revoked for a whole host of health issues. 

3. Start work in the control tower, working as an Air Traffic Services Assistant.  Not controlling planes, but assisting the controllers.

3. Go to ATC College (they have previously used the NATS training colleges, others are available) and pass the Tower course.  There are not many licensed ATC colleges and the idea we could do our own quick course at the IOM College for local hires is simply impossible. 

4. Return to EGNS and undertake the on the job training element required BY LAW to qualify as a Tower Controller.  At all times, whilst undertaking this element, you have to be supervised by a specifically qualified controller (an OJTI) meaning it takes two staff members to cover one position. 

5. Having qualified, work for a period of time as a Tower only Controller before returning to ATC college to pass the Radar control course.

6. Return to EGNS and undertake the on the job training element to qualify as a Radar Controller.  OJTI instructor again required so 2 staff members covering the position.

At last, after approx 3.5 - 4 YEARS we have trained a local candidate to be a controller.  Can everyone see why ab initio hires are not a quick way to solve a here and now staff shortage crisis?

Hiring qualified controllers is quicker, but still by no means fast.  Even a controller who has worked at Heathrow is required by law to undergo the on the job training element.  So it takes approx 12-18 months to train even the most highly competent controllers

Anyone want to hazard a guess why we have a ATC shortage crisis?  Two big inter linked factors (and there are others).  Firstly, the IOM Civil service decided to reduce ATC staffing numbers to the bare minimum to save money.  Someone quits, its not a quick process to replace them.  Someone retires and their replacement is not yet fully qualified, tough.  

Secondly, COVID.  The training colleges were not open during COVID, meaning ab initio hires who were hired in order to replace controllers approaching retirement could not do a mandatory part of their training.  Some were part qualified (Tower but not Radar).   When the colleges did open, NATS prioritised their own trainees meaning courses were full back to back.  So controllers retired (absolutely mandatory at 60) and their replacements could not replace them.

Finally, the IOM Airport used to be a great place to work where staff members felt valued and respected.  Anecdotally, up until 10 years ago you could probably count the number of controllers who quit and went to work elsewhere on one hand.   One example of the way in which management have made EGNS a toxic place to work is as follows:

EGNS published opening times are until 20:45.  This meant ATC staff members who start work at 13:15 should be finishing at 20:45.  BY LAW, if they started at 13:15 they cannot work past 23:00 and working past 20:45 should be the exception rather than the norm.  ATC were willing to stay until 23:00 on the rare occasion an extension was required.  But thanks to the actions of management, delays past 20:45 became not the exception, but rather the norm. 

Because management decided to give "seasonal extensions" to operators and allow them to schedule a flight to arrive after 20:45.   But no extra staff were hired and so the roster pattern could not be adapted to allow for a later start.  This means that, nowadays, controllers are consistently being made to work later and later thanks to management and EasyJet's (other airlines are available) complete inability to operate a plane to the schedule they have sold.  

I'm sure many of you will think this is innocuous but once you erode the goodwill in the work force, every little irritant becomes magnified.

And which genius in IOM Gov HR thought it would be good idea to hire an ATC Manager who isn't (and won't be) qualified to control at EGNS, like all their predecessors could, and did. 

TL;DR

it takes around 4 years to train a local hire to be a controller

it takes 12-18 months to train a qualified controller

Management have made a once great place to work, crap.

[lfc84]

Guernsey airport cut-off time for landing back in Guernsey is 11.35pm

 

Yet IOM is..... 😀

[Jarndyce]

53 minutes ago, madmanxpilot said:

For sure in the good old days it wouldn’t have been an issue, but with the obsession with rules based micromanagement and blame culture these days, things have changed.

Sounds like the hospital these days…

[x-in-man]

Would have interesting to see what would have happened if the pilot had declared with a reporting a bird strike of oil pressure light.  Would it have been sent back then?

[Banker]

1 hour ago, lfc84 said:

Guernsey airport cut-off time for landing back in Guernsey is 11.35pm

 

Yet IOM is..... 😀

That was after an extension not the norm and Isle of Man also has extensions if possible 

[asitis]

3 hours ago, madmanxpilot said:

If a controller here allowed a plane to land in the same scenario, would they get the backing from management? I’m not so sure, so would not be surprised at a similar go around being instructed by the controller through fear of disciplinary action.

For sure in the good old days it wouldn’t have been an issue, but with the obsession with rules based micromanagement and blame culture these days, things have changed.

 

I agree, ridiculous but not unusual management. Is the greater risk here an unnecessary go round and repositioning to another airport, with crew at the end of their working day, not to mention the mornings crew and aircraft positioning gone to hell ! I am sorry but any manager who considers 90 seconds a risk should be fired on the spot, air travel is in a hole and utter foolishness isn't going to help !

[Two-lane]

If 1 min 30 secs over is OK, then what is not OK? Let's say after a long discussion that you all agree that up to 5 mins over is OK.

Then what about 5mins 40 secs? The response is probably that the allowed time plus 5 mins is the hard limit, and nothing more is allowed.

In that case, the airlines should assume that the announced time limit is a hard limit, and they should not take chances with the scheduling.

How do things go in the engineering world? If a part is specified as x +-10%, and it is 10.1% over is it OK or not? (But don't ask Boeing).

As for "the aircraft hit a budgie and had an engine failure",  I assume the runway lights would be left on and the pilot would make a landing at an uncontrolled airfield - or whatever the phrase is.

[How does the time logging for ATCs work? If it is computer logged, and monitoring software sends a safety deviation to NATS if the time goes over by 1 sec, there is obviously a problem - (not that I would recommend falsifying a hand-written log book)]