asitis Posted August 23 Share Posted August 23 Maybe the ATC issue will crystallise in the fullness of time ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTF Posted August 23 Share Posted August 23 9 hours ago, Utah 01 said: I'll correct the end of that statement - 'civilian attitudes'. As for our learned lawyer's earlier comment, 'command' and 'management' have been indivisible in the Armed Forces and certainly 'man management' is something (and there will always be exceptions) is something the Forces excel at. yes , but we have a civilian airport so the workforce quite correctly expect to be working in a civilian manner. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmanxpilot Posted August 23 Share Posted August 23 (edited) 12 hours ago, Utah 01 said: I'll correct the end of that statement - 'civilian attitudes'. As for our learned lawyer's earlier comment, 'command' and 'management' have been indivisible in the Armed Forces and certainly 'man management' is something (and there will always be exceptions) is something the Forces excel at. It’s not necessary for ATCOs to have their boots polished and hair kept in regulation style. Obviously, I say that in jest, but it sort of illustrates a point. Not everything in the military world is transferable. Many rules and processes are different. I spent more than 20 years sitting in the LHS of commercial aircraft, and have worked with many fantastic ex military pilots when they left the services - RAF, Navy and AAC. One of the things I did notice when I flew with them was that many were reluctant to admit errors, and were even more reluctant to report them. It often took them a while to change their mindset into the way of the ‘just culture’. Some never really embraced it. A just culture’ within civilian aviation, in a nutshell, acknowledges that we all make mistakes and provided that those mistakes did not stem from deliberate rule breaking there is little chance of being disciplined as a result. This promotes a healthy environment where people can report their errors without fear of retribution. This is a massive plus in terms of enhancing safety within the business. Everybody can learn from others mistakes before those mistakes result in something more serious. The alternative to a just culture is the ‘blame culture’. As it says on the tin, this puts people in fear of reporting incidents, and is a detriment to safety. That was a significant difference between the civilian and military aviation worlds that I observed. Edited August 23 by madmanxpilot Typo 2 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarndyce Posted August 23 Share Posted August 23 18 minutes ago, madmanxpilot said: A just culture’ within civilian aviation, in a nutshell, is an acknowledges that we all make mistakes and provided that those mistakes did not stem from deliberate rule breaking there is little chance of being disciplined as a result. This promotes a healthy environment where people can report their errors without fear of retribution. This is a massive plus in terms of enhancing safety within the business. Everybody can learn from others mistakes before those mistakes result in something more serious. The alternative to a just culture is the ‘blame culture’. As it says in the tin, this puts people in fear of reporting incidents, and is a detriment to safety. Once again, a parallel with the hospital - where lip service is given to a just culture, while the staff are actually working in a blame culture… 2 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banker Posted August 23 Share Posted August 23 43 minutes ago, Jarndyce said: Once again, a parallel with the hospital - where lip service is given to a just culture, while the staff are actually working in a blame culture… Probably because lots of the public blame them for everything that goes wrong, demand instant medical attention, won’t listen to advice etc 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmanxpilot Posted August 23 Share Posted August 23 Just now, Banker said: Probably because lots of the public blame them for everything that goes wrong, demand instant medical attention, won’t listen to advice etc I think you may misunderstand the concept. Just and blame cultures relate to the workforce and management relationship, it has nothing to do with the customers 4 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah 01 Posted August 23 Share Posted August 23 58 minutes ago, madmanxpilot said: That was a significant difference between the civilian and military aviation worlds that I observed I can assure you that the flight safety system in the RAF was very robust and in terms of 'just culture' was as open as in civilian flying at unit and squadron level. If you can get hold of any back copies of 'Air Clues' you'll see what I mean. I suggest that what you came up against every now and again was the 'winged master-race syndrome' but even meeting one of those individauls were comparative rarities. Think back to your own previous employer and the ex-military crew there. With one possible exception of one, I don't believe you'd level any of your observations at them. You are quite right to say there was/is a significant difference between the civilian and military aviation worlds; one transports civilians from A-B while the other drop bombs, shoots down or gets shot at or assists other arms with the aim of defeat of those civilians' enemies as perceived by the State). The demands of operational military flying exceed those in the routine civilian world by a quantum mile which is why anyone wearing an RAF/RN/AAC brevet has come through a long, exhausting, rigorous and ruthless training system that would see a very large proportion of 'civilians' chopped at some stage, as they are in the military. Both are different sides of an aviation coin to achieve differing objectives and both have their differing challenges. Getting the aircraft airborne and down again is the easy bit; what goes on in between sorts the men from the boys. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmanxpilot Posted August 23 Share Posted August 23 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Utah 01 said: Think back to your own previous employer and the ex-military crew there. With one possible exception of one, I don't believe you'd level any of your observations at them. Oh yes, I think I can guess who you are referring to, assuming it was an IOM based pilot. He wasn’t the only one though. I know what I experienced throughout the network and stand by my observation that the reluctance to openly accept errors was a trait more often observed in former military flyers than their civilian counterparts. I think the investigation and subsequent report into the loss of a Nimrod and crew over Afghanistan in 2007 steered the RAF towards a more contemporary safety management system and just culture. Incidentally, I’m fairly certain that Flt Lt Squires who was lost in that accident, lived on the IOM. His mum certainly does. Edited August 23 by madmanxpilot 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molly Coddle Posted August 25 Share Posted August 25 (edited) On 8/23/2024 at 12:03 PM, Utah 01 said: I can assure you that the flight safety system in the RAF was very robust and in terms of 'just culture' was as open as in civilian flying at unit and squadron level. If you can get hold of any back copies of 'Air Clues' you'll see what I mean. I suggest that what you came up against every now and again was the 'winged master-race syndrome' but even meeting one of those individauls were comparative rarities. Think back to your own previous employer and the ex-military crew there. With one possible exception of one, I don't believe you'd level any of your observations at them. You are quite right to say there was/is a significant difference between the civilian and military aviation worlds; one transports civilians from A-B while the other drop bombs, shoots down or gets shot at or assists other arms with the aim of defeat of those civilians' enemies as perceived by the State). The demands of operational military flying exceed those in the routine civilian world by a quantum mile which is why anyone wearing an RAF/RN/AAC brevet has come through a long, exhausting, rigorous and ruthless training system that would see a very large proportion of 'civilians' chopped at some stage, as they are in the military. Both are different sides of an aviation coin to achieve differing objectives and both have their differing challenges. Getting the aircraft airborne and down again is the easy bit; what goes on in between sorts the men from the boys. No offence directed at the RAF. I am sure there are many excellent managers in the military, I am sure there are also bad managers. Just as there are both good and bad civilian managers. However, if a high salary and low tax is not enough to keep our ATCs here this is not a sign of good management whether civilian or military. I hear another one just left. Edited August 25 by Molly Coddle 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two-lane Posted August 25 Share Posted August 25 Does the exit rate now exceed the recruitment rate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah 01 Posted August 25 Share Posted August 25 1 hour ago, Molly Coddle said: I am sure there are many excellent managers in the military, I am sure there are also bad managers Absolutely correct. The military are just as bad as civilian organisations in promoting the mediocre way above their capability. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbnuts Posted August 25 Share Posted August 25 (edited) Looks like there’s ATC issues at the airport tonight. Apparently Gatwick flight to IOM has turned back blaming restrictions to our ATC . Looks like the rumours of more leaving is possible true . This is not good on the back of a terrible fortnight . update , Easyjet now saying it’s a hydraulic problem on the aircraft . Previously they said it was due to congestion. Have no idea what the truth is . Edited August 25 by Numbnuts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
x-in-man Posted August 25 Share Posted August 25 The airport is as much use as the Liverpool terminal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swoopy2110 Posted August 25 Share Posted August 25 Someone on board said they were told its because IOM ATC will be closed after they'd already set off. Better than being 90 seconds from touchdown though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nellie Posted August 25 Share Posted August 25 13 minutes ago, Numbnuts said: Looks like there’s ATC issues at the airport tonight. Apparently Gatwick flight to IOM has turned back blaming restrictions to our ATC . Looks like the rumours of more leaving is possible true . This is not good on the back of a terrible fortnight . update , Easyjet now saying it’s a hydraulic problem on the aircraft . Previously they said it was due to congestion. Have no idea what the truth is . LCY also diverted to LPL which suggests ATC closed earlier than both airlines expected, as they surely wouldn't have left otherwise. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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