Airport.

[TheTeapot]

Easyjet just took off. That's pretty late.

[lfc84]

1 hour ago, lfc84 said:

Number 6 tracked flight in the world has landed. Be interesting to hear the reason that the passengers have been given 

IOM-LGW has departed. easyJet flight tracker says it's diverting to Liverpool to refuel due to the increased usage on the way to IOM (due to weather)

 

Edited August 26 by lfc84

[Nellie]

Just now, TheTeapot said:

Easyjet just took off. That's pretty late.

And he's got to go to Liverpool to re-fuel. Presumably there was no fuel available here and they'd used to much to get back to Gatwick after that prolonged approach and hold. Another good news story for IOM Airport! 

[Numbnuts]

Wait for the ‘crew out of hours ‘ when they land at Liverpool . I guess , as the flight was so late arriving at Ronaldsway there would be no fuel staff available which is understandable .

Edited August 26 by Numbnuts

[John Wright]

Flew with Aer Lingus ( well Emerald masquerading as ) yesterday. First time in 12 months.

Noticed the no smoking signs, next to the fasten belt signs, under the bins, are no more. They’re now a no electronic devices sign.

[WTF]

11 hours ago, Nellie said:

And he's got to go to Liverpool to re-fuel. Presumably there was no fuel available here and they'd used to much to get back to Gatwick after that prolonged approach and hold. Another good news story for IOM Airport! 

there will have been fuel here but they will have needed to get wheels up before the place shut so won't  have had the time to refuel here meaning they had to stop off at a proper airport on route

Edited August 27 by WTF

[Nellie]

1 hour ago, John Wright said:

Flew with Aer Lingus ( well Emerald masquerading as ) yesterday. First time in 12 months.

Noticed the no smoking signs, next to the fasten belt signs, under the bins, are no more. They’re now a no electronic devices sign.

I've seen that too on the newest easyjet aircraft. I guess it gives you the reassurance you're flying on a newish aircraft!

[mad_manx]

Noticed something  last month on Easyjet from IOM .Due to some issues( I think low visibility)they wanted all electronic devices turned off before take off ( flight safe mode was not enough)

Crew were manually checking  the phones of every passenger on the aircraft 

I travel a fair bit and haven't noticed this anywhere else .. is this some new regulation under some exceptional circumstances ( like low visibility take off ??)

Edited August 27 by mad_manx

[mai wei]

Who recalls a conversation in response to a question posed by the MHK for Douglas South Mrs Christian regarding potential for delays due to ATC - Tynwald 16th April 2024? 

"To what extent flight schedules will be affected this summer by Island, British and international air traffic control issues; and if he will provide an update on the effect of additional resources for Ronaldsway announced in July 2023."

The exchange is in Hansard  

https://tynwald.org.im/spfile?file=/business/hansard/20202040/t240416.pdf

What's really interesting is the final exchange of supplementaries with Mrs Christian and Mr Glover. which concludes like this:

 

1415-

Mrs Christian: Yes. What is the target number of qualified and available staff in the tower, please, Mr President.

The Minister: I think 18 will give us what we look for at the moment to give us full coverage, Mr President.

Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. Just to clarify, that is the target number. Where are we at currently? So if 18 is the target number, if the Minister could confirm that. Also, could he confirm what technology innovation and partnerships have been considered to relieve pressure on the tower at Ronaldsway? Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Minister to reply

 

1430 –

The Minister: Yes, thank you. We are aiming to move the total number of ATCOs to 18; I can confirm that. There is ongoing training that goes on within the tower, Mr President, but that is also limited as to –

Mrs Christian: Will the Hon. Member give way?  Sorry, where are we at currently? So if we are aiming for 18, how many do we have currently?

The Minister: Again, I will get that. It is very close to it. We are not far short of that. We are very close, but again, I will confirm that, Mr President. Thank you for that. There is ongoing training that goes in with the new trainees that come into the air traffic control, but obviously that has to be regulated by those that are overseeing them actually have the other job to do as well, which is watching what goes on from the tower. So I think there are only two that can be trained at any one time and there are limited hours per day that they can do, as they have the day job as well.

1445-

The President: Supplementary, Mr Glover.

Mr Glover: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Could the Minister just confirm when – and it is good news that we are getting near – that 18 will be reached?

 The President: Minister to reply.

The Minister: I cannot say that because it will depend on … I think the two trainees that we have at the moment are having to go through their exams, but we are hoping in the next couple of months. As I said, hopefully the second half of this year we should have everybody fully trained.

I wonder what the answer would be if the Minister were asked the same question again? 

 

 

[WTF]

22 minutes ago, mad_manx said:

Noticed something  last month on Easyjet from IOM .Due to some issues( I think low visibility)they wanted all electronic devices turned off before take off ( flight safe mode was not enough)

Crew were manually checking  the phones of every passenger on the aircraft 

I travel a fair bit and haven't noticed this anywhere else .. is this some new regulation under some exceptional circumstances ( like low visibility take off ??)

maybe they didn't want anyone to video a dodgy take off.

[Manx Bean]

6 minutes ago, mai wei said:

Who recalls a conversation in response to a question posed by the MHK for Douglas South Mrs Christian regarding potential for delays due to ATC - Tynwald 16th April 2024? 

"To what extent flight schedules will be affected this summer by Island, British and international air traffic control issues; and if he will provide an update on the effect of additional resources for Ronaldsway announced in July 2023."

The exchange is in Hansard  

https://tynwald.org.im/spfile?file=/business/hansard/20202040/t240416.pdf

What's really interesting is the final exchange of supplementaries with Mrs Christian and Mr Glover. which concludes like this:

 

1415-

Mrs Christian: Yes. What is the target number of qualified and available staff in the tower, please, Mr President.

The Minister: I think 18 will give us what we look for at the moment to give us full coverage, Mr President.

Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. Just to clarify, that is the target number. Where are we at currently? So if 18 is the target number, if the Minister could confirm that. Also, could he confirm what technology innovation and partnerships have been considered to relieve pressure on the tower at Ronaldsway? Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Minister to reply

 

1430 –

The Minister: Yes, thank you. We are aiming to move the total number of ATCOs to 18; I can confirm that. There is ongoing training that goes on within the tower, Mr President, but that is also limited as to –

Mrs Christian: Will the Hon. Member give way?  Sorry, where are we at currently? So if we are aiming for 18, how many do we have currently?

The Minister: Again, I will get that. It is very close to it. We are not far short of that. We are very close, but again, I will confirm that, Mr President. Thank you for that. There is ongoing training that goes in with the new trainees that come into the air traffic control, but obviously that has to be regulated by those that are overseeing them actually have the other job to do as well, which is watching what goes on from the tower. So I think there are only two that can be trained at any one time and there are limited hours per day that they can do, as they have the day job as well.

1445-

The President: Supplementary, Mr Glover.

Mr Glover: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Could the Minister just confirm when – and it is good news that we are getting near – that 18 will be reached?

 The President: Minister to reply.

The Minister: I cannot say that because it will depend on … I think the two trainees that we have at the moment are having to go through their exams, but we are hoping in the next couple of months. As I said, hopefully the second half of this year we should have everybody fully trained.

I wonder what the answer would be if the Minister were asked the same question again? 

 

 

If you can find him.

I’m also incredibly curious to know why such a small and virtually tin pot airport needs 18 ATCs? Can actually anybody explain that? 

[Nellie]

47 minutes ago, mad_manx said:

Noticed something  last month on Easyjet from IOM .Due to some issues( I think low visibility)they wanted all electronic devices turned off before take off ( flight safe mode was not enough)

Crew were manually checking  the phones of every passenger on the aircraft 

I travel a fair bit and haven't noticed this anywhere else .. is this some new regulation under some exceptional circumstances ( like low visibility take off ??)

They do that when they are going to do a fully automated landing. They expalin that to the passenegers that is the reason, but I guess they don't have to do that! 

[LooseChange]

There's simply no way that EGNS ATC need 18 qualified Air Traffic Controllers.  My back of the fag packet maths suggests 12 controllers is adequate.

They may need 18 members of staff, but that is not the same thing.  In both positions (Tower and Radar) there is a Air Traffic Controller (ATCO) and an Air Traffic Services Assistant (ATSA). Some of the ATSAs will be trainee controllers who have not yet started their training but some of them will be ATSAs and only ATSAs.  An ATSA is not a qualified ATCO and the job requires nothing more than on the job training. 

The roster that previously worked many many years (and the official airport opening hours have not changed) was 6 days on, 3 days off.  3 controllers working the AM shift (05:45 to 13:15) and 3 working the PM shift (13:15 to 20:45) and 3 on their days off.   That is 9 controllers actually needed per day.  Add another 3 to allow for annual leave and you get 12. 

So, if per the minister, we need 18 ATCOS and we're close, why the problems when 12 is adequate?  It has to be that the Minister has misunderstood and has failed to understand that not all people working in the control tower are Air Traffic Controllers. 

So it rather begs the question, how many ATCOs are there, and how many ATSAs are there?  I suspect there are actually a similar number of ATSAs to ATCOs and since ATSAs are not ATCOs, we have problems keeping the airfield open. 

I really do wish that our Politicians (both the Minister for the Department and those asking the questions) would take just a little time to properly understand what it is they're talking about.  Then proper answers could be asked and proper answers could be given instead of the word salad that Hansard shows.   
 

 

[Roger Mexico]

13 minutes ago, LooseChange said:

There's simply no way that EGNS ATC need 18 qualified Air Traffic Controllers.  My back of the fag packet maths suggests 12 controllers is adequate.

They may need 18 members of staff, but that is not the same thing.  In both positions (Tower and Radar) there is a Air Traffic Controller (ATCO) and an Air Traffic Services Assistant (ATSA). Some of the ATSAs will be trainee controllers who have not yet started their training but some of them will be ATSAs and only ATSAs.  An ATSA is not a qualified ATCO and the job requires nothing more than on the job training. 

The roster that previously worked many many years (and the official airport opening hours have not changed) was 6 days on, 3 days off.  3 controllers working the AM shift (05:45 to 13:15) and 3 working the PM shift (13:15 to 20:45) and 3 on their days off.   That is 9 controllers actually needed per day.  Add another 3 to allow for annual leave and you get 12. 

So, if per the minister, we need 18 ATCOS and we're close, why the problems when 12 is adequate?  It has to be that the Minister has misunderstood and has failed to understand that not all people working in the control tower are Air Traffic Controllers. 

So it rather begs the question, how many ATCOs are there, and how many ATSAs are there?  I suspect there are actually a similar number of ATSAs to ATCOs and since ATSAs are not ATCOs, we have problems keeping the airfield open. 

I really do wish that our Politicians (both the Minister for the Department and those asking the questions) would take just a little time to properly understand what it is they're talking about.  Then proper answers could be asked and proper answers could be given instead of the word salad that Hansard shows.   
 

 

There was some discussion about this on this topic a bit over a year ago, based on info from an FoI.  The basic requirement was 16 but with extra from trainees and training.  

[gerremonside]

For anyone that is really interested, there is a publicly available document which describes exactly how an ATC Unit many calculate how many ATCOs it needs to run a unit. It's called CAP670, ATS Safety requirements. 
At Part D the formula for calculating is given. It's not dissimilar to the fag packet used by Loose Change above, but does add in a need to accommodate in addition to leave, "public holidays in lieu, allowance for sickness and training etc." Bear in mind the calculation takes no account of Bank holidays as such. 

My vape box calculation based on that figure, allowing for 5 days sick (remember an ATCO must adhere strictly to health & fitness criteria) and 2/3 days training (an ATCO must also undergo annual emergency & standard procedures training to ensure currency) the figure works out at 13.2. 
It must be rounded up giving a minimum of 14. That covers the current published airport availability of 0600-2045 core hours. If it had to be guaranteed to stay beyond 2045 , more staff would be needed and it would be fair to think that is why 18 is being aimed for, to also accommodate a need to fulfil ancillary tasks such as rostering, on the job training delivery, examining, procedures updates etc etc. 
Also given the problems inherent in shortages, having a slight surplus over the minimum requirement might also be prudent. 
LC's point about ATCOs v ATSAs is also relevant, and it is possible that some of the compliment of ATCOs may be required to fill in for ATSAs at times when they have sickness or are redeployed to the college to commence their ATCO training.