Airport.

[madmanxpilot]

People keep saying on here that there is a global shortage of ATC staff. That is a fact. However, if we hadn’t lost so many of our qualified ATC staff over the last few years, then we would not be in the position we are now. 
 

The requirement to be airborne 15 minutes before the start of a scheduled ATC closure is to allow for the return of an aircraft should an emergency dictate.

A couple of thoughts on that matter.

Performance A aircraft are required to be able to suffer the loss of a critical engine at take off and fly for at least one hour on the remaining engine(s) to a suitable take off alternate. The take off alternate can be the airport iof departure if the weather and other factors are right. If they’re not, pilots will nominate a take off alternate within one hours flying time on the remaining  engine(s). That  typically is somewhere between 250 and 300 nautical miles. This means that aircraft can take off at Ronaldsway in visibilities and cloud bases  that are well below the landing minima. They would not be able to return anyway, so why keep the airport open for 15 minutes, even on good weather days.
 

In my view the 15 minute rule is extant because there is not a full understanding of how performance A aircraft work in this regard. It is  a luxury that we don’t really need and certainly can’t afford with our staffing levels.

Many simulator checks that I had during my career involved an engine failure/fire on departure followed by a diversion to the take of alternate. So not being able to return to your departure airfield is a trained for eventuality and nothing at all outwith of standard procedure.

If it’s arse covering that is being considered here, then perhaps a question along the lines of:’the aerodrome will be closing in five minutes’ (or whatever), are you happy to depart?’ should be presented by ATC to the crew. I don’t know if any who would say they wouldn’t go.

 

Edited September 6 by madmanxpilot

[madmanxpilot]

15 minutes ago, Capt_Mainwaring said:

Bollocks.

You can be airborne within 5 minutes of starting the pushback and I’ve done lots of flights to MAN sub 25 minutes airborne, so RR’s assertion is correct.

[Capt_Mainwaring]

6 minutes ago, madmanxpilot said:

You can be airborne within 5 minutes of starting the pushback and I’ve done lots of flights to MAN sub 25 minutes airborne, so RR’s assertion is correct.

So say 5 mins from pushback to being airborne, plus 25 mins airborne, that's 30 mins. The assertion was 'most of the way to Manchester'. In 19 minutes from pushback. That's only just over half way. And realistically, how often does that happen?

[Capt_Mainwaring]

@madmanxpilot look at today's EZY716. 16 mins from pushback to airborne. Straight out and in departure on 08 / 05, 30 mins airborne. 

[madmanxpilot]

14 minutes ago, Capt_Mainwaring said:

So say 5 mins from pushback to being airborne, plus 25 mins airborne, that's 30 mins. The assertion was 'most of the way to Manchester'. In 19 minutes from pushback. That's only just over half way. And realistically, how often does that happen?

Well, technically in my example  after 17.5 from starting the pushback you’d be over half way, which one could say is most of the way.  

If you are landing on 05 at Manchester providing there are no delays, flights from Ronaldsway are often 25 minutes. 

5 minutes push back to airborne is a rarer beast I’ll admit. You need to prep the cabin crew to get a wiggle on too as waiting for cabin secure. Is usually the determining factor.
 

 

[madmanxpilot]

1 minute ago, Capt_Mainwaring said:

@madmanxpilot look at today's EZY716. 16 mins from pushback to airborne. Straight out and in departure on 08 / 05, 30 mins airborne. 

Just had a loon at FR24. It went all the way to MIRSI before being turned on to wide right base. Also, look at the ground speed, it was less than 160 kts before they were turned onto final. A full routing, no directs (short cuts) and low speed for a significant time towards the end of the flight.

[Capt_Mainwaring]

2 minutes ago, madmanxpilot said:

Just had a loon at FR24. It went all the way to MIRSI before being turned on to wide right base. Also, look at the ground speed, it was less than 160 kts before they were turned onto final. A full routing, no directs (short cuts) and low speed for a significant time towards the end of the flight.

I know, but still think most of the way to Manchester from pushback to touchdown in 19 mins is probably, in most cases, not the case 😉

[Ringy Rose]

44 minutes ago, Capt_Mainwaring said:

So say 5 mins from pushback to being airborne, plus 25 mins airborne, that's 30 mins. The assertion was 'most of the way to Manchester'. In 19 minutes from pushback. That's only just over half way. And realistically, how often does that happen?

Christ alive, I thought I was pedantic.

”Most of the way“ being, fairly obviously, a figure of speech.

I shall say “had the plane pushed back at 10.41, and had the taxi been 10 minutes, then the aircraft would have been approximately 37% of the way to Manchester.” Better?

 

[Capt_Mainwaring]

6 minutes ago, Ringy Rose said:

37% of the way to Manchester.

So not most of the way then...?

[madmanxpilot]

3 minutes ago, Capt_Mainwaring said:

I know, but still think most of the way to Manchester from pushback to touchdown in 19 mins is probably, in most cases, not the case 😉

Maybe, but perhaps not worthy of a call of bollocks, because it does happen even though RR has just said it was a figure of speech.

 

[Capt_Mainwaring]

3 minutes ago, madmanxpilot said:

Maybe, but perhaps not worthy of a call of bollocks, because it does happen even though RR has just said it was a figure of speech.

 

Maybe a bit trigger happy with the bollocks call I'll concede then. I'll agree it *could* happen, but I've flown to Manchester countless times and I'd wager that I've not been over half way there in 19 mins from pushback on many, if any, of those flights.

[asitis]

I think the relevant point is would the aircraft have been in a position to be handed over to another watching radar service, before the expiry of the 15 minutes. Undoubtedly it would.

Let's not argue chaps, everyone knows what the main issue here is but no one will deal with it, we just keep squabbling around in circles !

[Dirty Buggane]

I did not know we had loons on the island, loony's aplenty .

[mai wei]

13 hours ago, madmanxpilot said:

People keep saying on here that there is a global shortage of ATC staff. That is a fact. However, if we hadn’t lost so many of our qualified ATC staff over the last few years, then we would not be in the position we are now. 
 

The requirement to be airborne 15 minutes before the start of a scheduled ATC closure is to allow for the return of an aircraft should an emergency dictate.

A couple of thoughts on that matter.

Performance A aircraft are required to be able to suffer the loss of a critical engine at take off and fly for at least one hour on the remaining engine(s) to a suitable take off alternate. The take off alternate can be the airport iof departure if the weather and other factors are right. If they’re not, pilots will nominate a take off alternate within one hours flying time on the remaining  engine(s). That  typically is somewhere between 250 and 300 nautical miles. This means that aircraft can take off at Ronaldsway in visibilities and cloud bases  that are well below the landing minima. They would not be able to return anyway, so why keep the airport open for 15 minutes, even on good weather days.
 

In my view the 15 minute rule is extant because there is not a full understanding of how performance A aircraft work in this regard. It is  a luxury that we don’t really need and certainly can’t afford with our staffing levels.

Many simulator checks that I had during my career involved an engine failure/fire on departure followed by a diversion to the take of alternate. So not being able to return to your departure airfield is a trained for eventuality and nothing at all outwith of standard procedure.

If it’s arse covering that is being considered here, then perhaps a question along the lines of:’the aerodrome will be closing in five minutes’ (or whatever), are you happy to depart?’ should be presented by ATC to the crew. I don’t know if any who would say they wouldn’t go.

 

I wouldn't say this exchange is irrelevant, but it does mean that the main point has been side-lined. That being the opening paragraph in MMP's post above. The seemingly acute shortage of ATC's that leads to a need to still have to close the airport all this time down the road (runway?) is the main issue that needs to be resolved. 

The secondary issue about this lack of flexibility is however also important . As MMP says, putting the circumstances to the airline (or crew on the day) as to what the implications of taking off when the airport is due to close within whatever time it has to close should be be easily achievable shouldn't it?

Assuming that other pilots' decision if given the alternatives might be the same, it would seem that his exchange hasn't taken place. I wonder is that the responsibility of the ATCs themselves or their generals? Either way, the question is, why hasn't it happened? 

It is however only a very much lesser question than why is the airport still closing for tea breaks, and why are services also being reduced even when open (that is, the radar being closed)

I'll be interested to see the answers to Ms Christian and Mr Thomas' upcoming questions. Does anyone know whether they are both written answers or is Ms Christian's an oral question? 

Edited September 6 by mai wei

[Roger Mexico]

42 minutes ago, mai wei said:

I'll be interested to see the answers to Ms Christian and Mr Thomas' upcoming questions. Does anyone know whether they are both written answers or is Ms Christian's an oral question? 

Both are questions for written answer (no point in asking oral ones when Tynwald doesn't meet till mid-October).  These should all be answered by around the 23rd or so.  Can't link to any individual WQs before they're answered, but they're all available from here:

https://www.tynwald.org.im/questions

Scroll down or search.  As you can see Thomas has some other interesting ones on the Airport (and is indeed continuing to ask a lot about the Steam Packet).