Airport.

[asitis]

14 minutes ago, Molly Coddle said:

I understand the director has been in position for the departure of all three

I hope his inaction bites him in the ass !

[mai wei]

1 hour ago, Ringy Rose said:

What he said was a bit more nuanced than the reporting of what he said. But the ATC staff have been abused, online and I’ve also heard that this has extended to abuse of airport staff in person.

As @Roger Mexico says, a big part of the animosity seems to stem from EasyJet’s desire to apportion blame away from its own failings. The airport, and ATC, routinely work late to accommodate EasyJet and to accommodate easyJet’s inability to stick to the timetable easyJet itself publishes. All of this goes unnoticed and un-noted but whenever EasyJet’s delays exceed what we can facilitate then easyJet are only too happy to throw all the blame on Ronaldsway.

I get why easyJet do it- it’s to try and avoid being liable for compensation under UK/EU261. But the consequence is that Ronaldsway staff get the abuse for it.

If the ATCOs already hate their management then if they start getting abuse off the public that’ll be the final straw to make them leave.

Is the point now that ATC did seem to always work late when told to, to accommodate Easyjet and others' extension requests to run beyond the published airport hours, but now will not always do so. 
Two things are at play in this I would guess - firstly the long term shortage of bodies is beginning to bite to the point where good will despite a wish not to inconvenience passengers is running out. This is possibly due to the shortage meaning that they are already working extra hours which means further "vicious circle" increase in the fatigue that the breaks are meant to alleviate.
Secondly that the expectation that they will accommodate this late running was being taken for granted for far too long, and given so many circumstances, including the mocking referred too by Mr Cobb, they have decided enough is enough. 
Easyjet don't help themselves with their model, but it's ben the tacit agreement that it's OK to be late, which has been the party line for so long from the airport which has caused this problem.

Successive management groups have allowed both them and Loganair to schedule flights outside the published hours with an expectation that ATC will stay. I think it's actually only Loganair who currently have flights scheduled outside the hours Mr Cobb referred to in yesterdays speech - ie 8-45. 

Ultimately the staffing shortage is the issue, as without it the airport could be flexible to stay open longer, but successive decisions about recruitment and retention have resulted in it being in the position of today, and the current group although not responsible for the inception of the policy are by no means able to claim that they have not exacerbated the problem
 

[Andy Onchan]

36 minutes ago, mai wei said:

Is the point now that ATC did seem to always work late when told to, to accommodate Easyjet and others' extension requests to run beyond the published airport hours, but now will not always do so. 
Two things are at play in this I would guess - firstly the long term shortage of bodies is beginning to bite to the point where good will despite a wish not to inconvenience passengers is running out. This is possibly due to the shortage meaning that they are already working extra hours which means further "vicious circle" increase in the fatigue that the breaks are meant to alleviate.
Secondly that the expectation that they will accommodate this late running was being taken for granted for far too long, and given so many circumstances, including the mocking referred too by Mr Cobb, they have decided enough is enough. 
Easyjet don't help themselves with their model, but it's ben the tacit agreement that it's OK to be late, which has been the party line for so long from the airport which has caused this problem.

Successive management groups have allowed both them and Loganair to schedule flights outside the published hours with an expectation that ATC will stay. I think it's actually only Loganair who currently have flights scheduled outside the hours Mr Cobb referred to in yesterdays speech - ie 8-45. 

Ultimately the staffing shortage is the issue, as without it the airport could be flexible to stay open longer, but successive decisions about recruitment and retention have resulted in it being in the position of today, and the current group although not responsible for the inception of the policy are by no means able to claim that they have not exacerbated the problem
 

As I said earlier in the thread, the financial payment for staying open for an airline that consistently abuses our ATC opening hours is an insult. Ramp those costs up and see what happens. If they fck off, then so be it. At least then our government executive and elected might focus on quality services.  

[asitis]

3 hours ago, mai wei said:

Is the point now that ATC did seem to always work late when told to, to accommodate Easyjet and others' extension requests to run beyond the published airport hours, but now will not always do so. 
Two things are at play in this I would guess - firstly the long term shortage of bodies is beginning to bite to the point where good will despite a wish not to inconvenience passengers is running out. This is possibly due to the shortage meaning that they are already working extra hours which means further "vicious circle" increase in the fatigue that the breaks are meant to alleviate.
Secondly that the expectation that they will accommodate this late running was being taken for granted for far too long, and given so many circumstances, including the mocking referred too by Mr Cobb, they have decided enough is enough. 
Easyjet don't help themselves with their model, but it's ben the tacit agreement that it's OK to be late, which has been the party line for so long from the airport which has caused this problem.

Successive management groups have allowed both them and Loganair to schedule flights outside the published hours with an expectation that ATC will stay. I think it's actually only Loganair who currently have flights scheduled outside the hours Mr Cobb referred to in yesterdays speech - ie 8-45. 

Ultimately the staffing shortage is the issue, as without it the airport could be flexible to stay open longer, but successive decisions about recruitment and retention have resulted in it being in the position of today, and the current group although not responsible for the inception of the policy are by no means able to claim that they have not exacerbated the problem
 

There are three things at play i.e. one more than your excellent post here !

[swoopy2110]

3 hours ago, Andy Onchan said:

As I said earlier in the thread, the financial payment for staying open for an airline that consistently abuses our ATC opening hours is an insult. Ramp those costs up and see what happens. If they fck off, then so be it. At least then our government executive and elected might focus on quality services.  

And who do you get in to replace easyJet out of curiosity ?

[Andy Onchan]

27 minutes ago, swoopy2110 said:

And who do you get in to replace easyJet out of curiosity ?

Aurigny, Eastern, Blue Islands? Low cost doesn't really fit an Island lifeline type operation that's required here. It needs an operator committed to serving the Island, with or without subvention. 

[swoopy2110]

Eastern have tried before. People said it was too expensive.

Blue Islands lslands charge £235 one way to Jersey FFS

EZY provide high volume at lower cost which is why so many people book on them.

[Banker]

34 minutes ago, Andy Onchan said:

Aurigny, Eastern, Blue Islands? Low cost doesn't really fit an Island lifeline type operation that's required here. It needs an operator committed to serving the Island, with or without subvention. 

Aurigny is consistently complained about due to delays/cancellations and are scrapping their jet to save costs, also guernsey airport is no better than ours. Blue islands are extremely expensive, small planes and couldn’t cope with easyJet schedule.

[Andy Onchan]

9 minutes ago, Banker said:

Aurigny is consistently complained about due to delays/cancellations and are scrapping their jet to save costs, also guernsey airport is no better than ours. Blue islands are extremely expensive, small planes and couldn’t cope with easyJet schedule.

Aurigny are in the same boat (sorry about the mixed metaphor) as EZY when it comes to LGW rotations. Their jets have gone haven't they and now operate in the black?

Why would Blue Islands want to copy the EZY model? They're not low cost as such but they would give LM a run for their money on a similar type of rotation, in this instance Jersey-Southampton:

 

 

 

 

 

[Andy Onchan]

51 minutes ago, swoopy2110 said:

Eastern have tried before. People said it was too expensive.

Blue Islands lslands charge £235 one way to Jersey FFS

EZY provide high volume at lower cost which is why so many people book on them.

That's not like-for-like. See above example.

[forestboy]

Eastern did provide a good service to Newcastle. Used a few times. 

[Andy Onchan]

2 minutes ago, forestboy said:

Eastern did provide a good service to Newcastle. Used a few times. 

I've used them in the past,  Teeside (or maybe) Newcastle-Aberdeen for the Offshore Europe shows. Don't recall anything bad about them.

[Ringy Rose]

8 hours ago, mai wei said:

Successive management groups have allowed both them and Loganair to schedule flights outside the published hours with an expectation that ATC will stay. I think it's actually only Loganair who currently have flights scheduled outside the hours Mr Cobb referred to in yesterdays speech - ie 8-45. 

A good post.

The extension to 9.30 is standard and planned for, and where Loganair have scheduled it to be later it is by a few minutes- 20.50 instead of 20.45. The Loganair from City is usually due in at 20.35 though.

8 hours ago, mai wei said:

Two things are at play in this I would guess - firstly the long term shortage of bodies is beginning to bite to the point where good will despite a wish not to inconvenience passengers is running out

The airport will stay open until the standard extension of 9.30, it’s when it gets beyond that it becomes a problem. The lack of staff will be two-fold, but as well as goodwill there’s also the practical side. Anyone who stays late isn’t available the next morning. You’ll notice how often the early morning Loganair flights don’t get to leave until after 7am.

I don’t really blame the ATCOs for not having the same level of goodwill as before. How unpleasant some of the EasyJet pilots are about ATC on the PA system on the planes is disgraceful and no wonder passengers hear that from a pilot and assume it’s the truth.

3 hours ago, swoopy2110 said:

And who do you get in to replace easyJet out of curiosity ?

EasyJet’s big planes are good at hoovering up passengers but they’re not what give you a regular frequent service.

If easyJet weren’t here you’d see Loganair, etc, quickly offer more daily rotations on those routes. An ATR72 seats 70 so two rotations is the same as an EasyJet A319, three rotations is the same as the EasyJet A320. People wonder why there are fewer flights to Manchester and Liverpool these days, well that’s your answer.

[asitis]

53 minutes ago, Ringy Rose said:

If easyJet weren’t here you’d see Loganair, etc, quickly offer more daily rotations on those routes. An ATR72 seats 70 so two rotations is the same as an EasyJet A319, three rotations is the same as the EasyJet A320. People wonder why there are fewer flights to Manchester and Liverpool these days, well that’s your answ

I agree, here is an excerpt from a report given to Government in the days of Brown 2006 , or to put it another way, the days of easyjet at any cost ! Your assertion as above was reality then ! I apologise to those who have seen me quote this stuff many times LOL !

For this scenario EasyJet will be used, as the airline currently operates from Jersey (see Chapter 7) and therefore could potentially be attracted by the demographically similar Isle of Man market. Easyjet operate Airbus A319 aircraft with 156 seats, and therefore fill on average 131 seats per flight. With the current passenger volumes and load factors at Ronaldsway discussed earlier, it is clear that a significant decrease in aircraft movements would occur with the introduction of larger aircraft relying on economies of scale. In fact EasyJet could only operate 5,835 movements per annum compared with the current level of 29,742 if it were to capture 100 percent of the airports passengers in 2007. To put the scenario into a more assimilative form, this equates to just 1 return flight a day to 8 destinations. Whilst this scenario is not realistic in terms of the likely composition of future services, one can conclude that current passenger volumes are insufficient to support a low cost carrier without cannibalising most if not all of the existing operators. Furthermore a significant reduction in choice for the consumer would occur, with much greater travel restrictions.

[Happier diner]

3 hours ago, Andy Onchan said:

I've used them in the past,  Teeside (or maybe) Newcastle-Aberdeen for the Offshore Europe shows. Don't recall anything bad about them.

Apart from the exorbitant cost and the damage to your ear drums.