Youth Gone Wild in Onchan

[AlanShimmin]

1 hour ago, Holte End said:

David Quirk ever do this as an MHK.

Quirkio is nothing but a ranting, shit-stirring political dinosaur.

[Roger Mexico]

2 hours ago, Shake me up Judy said:

It only took Manx Radio two and a half weeks to report the outcome of the inquest. Whose decision was that ? 

The inquest took place on 6 August, but I'm not sure when the report went up on the Judgments website - I suspect more recently.  The real problem is that there is no direct press reporting of inquests - Jayne Hughes said she had never seen a reporter in Court since she took over. 

Given that only a handful of inquests only appear on the website each year, you do wonder what gets missed entirely.  It means those who control the website can control what becomes news (or not).

[Shake me up Judy]

Thanks Roger. This is big news too and yet it takes our local media until the 24th August to report the inquest's findings. Absolutely shameful and a disgrace given the circumstances of the case and the death of this woman. It's an insult to the family and relatives.

ETA Was there any reporting of the inquest into the woman pedestrian killed at the bottom of Royal Avenue several year ago ? Did the inquest take place ? I've never heard anything about the outcome.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Shake me up Judy

[Roger Mexico]

19 minutes ago, Shake me up Judy said:

ETA Was there any reporting of the inquest into the woman pedestrian killed at the bottom of Royal Avenue several year ago ? Did the inquest take place ? I've never heard anything about the outcome.

If it's this one in 2016, there doesn't seem to have been one reported, but there would have been an inquest.  But there's only 11 inquests reported from 2017 till now, so you never find out in the vast majority of cases.

[John Wright]

15 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

If it's this one in 2016, there doesn't seem to have been one reported, but there would have been an inquest.  But there's only 11 inquests reported from 2017 till now, so you never find out in the vast majority of cases.

Remember, only inquests where there’s a written long judgment get posted on the judgments web site. In other words ones where there are serious issues of fact and law to be enquired into/applied.

Most inquests just deliver a verdict. The facts are incontrovertible and there are no legal issues. There’s just a verdict.

I think the 2016 incident resulted in criminal proceedings. So they’d take place first. Then, assuming a conviction, the inquest verdict normally becomes a formality.

[Max Power]

Playing devil's advocate, is there any indication that there was any intent to harm this poor woman, or is it that she got herself wound up seeing youths behaving badly and throwing pears around? Whatever, the fact is that this has happened previously where people have become involved in antisocial behaviour which has caused extreme stress leading to death. This may not be the intention, but it does clarify why antisocial behaviour should be stamped on. 

[Barlow]

Quirkio made a good point on Mannin Line today regarding the police.

If you call the switchboard number (ie for non-emergency 999) it can take "forever" to be answered. 

I wonder could the police annual report state the average wait for the non-emergency switchboard to answer (the telephone software will provide this information).

[John Wright]

7 minutes ago, Barlow said:

Quirkio made a good point on Mannin Line today regarding the police.

If you call the switchboard number (ie for non-emergency 999) it can take "forever" to be answered. 

I wonder could the police annual report state the average wait for the non-emergency switchboard to answer (the telephone software will provide this information).

If it’s to report a low level offence you’ll get to the same place, via 999 or 631212. That’s the JSCR. 631212 just delays you getting through until there’s capacity on 999

[Max Power]

9 minutes ago, Barlow said:

Quirkio made a good point on Mannin Line today regarding the police.

If you call the switchboard number (ie for non-emergency 999) it can take "forever" to be answered. 

I wonder could the police annual report state the average wait for the non-emergency switchboard to answer (the telephone software will provide this information).

That is a fact, I just gave up.

[Barlow]

9 minutes ago, John Wright said:

If it’s to report a low level offence you’ll get to the same place, via 999 or 631212. That’s the JSCR. 631212 just delays you getting through until there’s capacity on 999

I can't see that.

On the few occasions I have had need to call 999 the response has been literally asap. Everytime.

On occasions I have phoned 631212 the wait has been - 9 times out of 10 - interminable. So what you are saying if you call 999 when someone else has just called 999 you are reduced to the wait everyone else seems to have on 631212.

Nahh, John, I can't see it.

 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Barlow

[John Wright]

5 minutes ago, Barlow said:

I can't see that.

On the few occasions I have had need to call 999 the response has been literally asap. Everytime.

On occasions I have phoned 631212 the wait has been - 9 times out of 10 - interminable. So what you are saying if you call 999 when someone else has just called 999 you are reduced to the wait everyone else seems to have on 631212.

Nahh, John, I can't see it.

 

You’re being obtuse.

Ring 999 in emergency and very quick response.

Ring 631212 about a non urgent crime and you still go through to JSCR, but it’s queued to prioritise emergency 999 calls.

At the end of the day it’s still the same people, manning the same phones,  you get put through to.

I recently rang 631212 to report, routinely, non urgently, a theft from an estate I’m executor of. I had done all the detective work. List of what was missing, identity of perpetrator, names of witnesses. No need for 999. I’d secured the premises. Wanted to speak to a police officer direct. No, had to go through JSCR, where they triage it and pass on to officers. 7 weeks later nothing done. I’ve got an officers name, phone, e-mail. No feed back. Every e-mail they’re on leave, nights. Phone, there’s no way to leave a message.

[Roger Mexico]

31 minutes ago, Max Power said:

Playing devil's advocate, is there any indication that there was any intent to harm this poor woman, or is it that she got herself wound up seeing youths behaving badly and throwing pears around? Whatever, the fact is that this has happened previously where people have become involved in antisocial behaviour which has caused extreme stress leading to death. This may not be the intention, but it does clarify why antisocial behaviour should be stamped on. 

The Coroner addressed this point in her findings:

40. I must ask myself the question was the act of disorder dangerous in that it is, from an objective standpoint, one which a sober, reasonable and responsible person of the youths' age and gender, would inevitably realise is an act which is likely to cause the deceased some physical harm? Objectively I do not find on balance that a reasonable and responsible youth would realise that the acts of disorder including the throwing of pears would cause Lesley some physical harm. They may have foreseen and perhaps intended to cause Lesley and others in the neighbourhood distress and annoyance (and for the record I find on balance that they did) but from the evidence available to me I do not find that foresight included a likelihood of physical harm. No-one involved in the incident that night, either the youths or others present, foresaw what sadly happened to Lesley.

[Declan]

31 minutes ago, Max Power said:

Playing devil's advocate, is there any indication that there was any intent to harm this poor woman, or is it that she got herself wound up seeing youths behaving badly and throwing pears around? 

That's essentially the finding. They were anti-social hooligans, that intended to cause upset (to the husband and a neighbour) but not physical harm. 

[Banker]

Has the children’s champion Rob Callister said or done anything yet regarding issues in Onchan?

[Declan]

4 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

one which a sober, reasonable and responsible person of the youths' age and gender, would inevitably realise is an act which is likely to cause the deceased some physical harm? 

Bit of an odd phrase that, personally I don't think a sober, reasonable and responsible youth throws pears at people's homes.