SleepyJoe Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 It's left to Russia, China, Turkey and - wait for it - the EU to call for an end to the violence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 2 minutes ago, HeliX said: International condemnation and some sanctions would be a sensible place to start. But virtually none of the Western world will stand up to Israel so here we are. So peaceful negotiation then? Surely that's the purpose of sanctions in the long term. I agree, there should have been an intervention long ago. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shake me up Judy Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 (edited) You're being taken in by all the left-wing propaganda Helix. There was a great book published some years ago about the young leftists and liberals in post-Nazi Germany, whose fathers had all bought into Hitler's myth. They swore to build a new Germany (Which largely they did) free of its Nazi past, but some got caught up with the Baader Meinhof student terrorists and other radical anti-capitalist groups. They got taken in by the PLO and ended up murdering Jews just like their fathers had. The book's by Paul Berman, Power and the Idealists pub. 2007. Edited May 17, 2021 by Shake me up Judy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 Not sure if this FT Story is available generally - it's via Google News, but it's a good analysis of how Bibi's Outside-In plan to use normalising relations with outside Arab regimes - Bahrain, UAE etc as a way of encouraging moderation from the likes of Hamas has really hit a bump in the road as Internal Palestinian radicalism (inflamed by Bibi's policies) has resulted in violence the Arab states cannot be seen to back. I know it goes against Helix's rhetoric, but Trump and Bibi were following a strategy to get Hamas et al to accept a 2-state solution. That 2-state solution was on Israel's terms, but it was far more than Helix's maps would claim. I find some of Helix's cartoon farcical - Hamas is genocidal and wants a genocide against Israel. Israel would accept a 2 state solution if it got rid of Hamas. That was the idea of the Outside in Plan - the fact it has failed is a failute for Bibi's diplomacy right at the end of his career. Sharon gambled for peace and Hamas wrecked it. It is possible Bibi is the same, but no matter his plans are in tatter as Arabs unite over the blood shed in Gaza. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 1 hour ago, Shake me up Judy said: You're being taken in by all the left-wing propaganda Helix. There was a great book published some years ago about the young leftists and liberals in post-Nazi Germany, whose fathers had all bought into Hitler's myth. They swore to build a new Germany (Which largely they did) free of its Nazi past, but some got caught up with the Baader Meinhof student terrorists and other radical anti-capitalist groups. They got taken in by the PLO and ended up murdering Jews just like their fathers had. The book's by Paul Berman, Power and the Idealists pub. 2007. Being anti-genocide now has something to do with Hitler? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 34 minutes ago, Chinahand said: I know it goes against Helix's rhetoric, but Trump and Bibi were following a strategy to get Hamas et al to accept a 2-state solution. That 2-state solution was on Israel's terms, but it was far more than Helix's maps would claim. I find some of Helix's cartoon farcical - Hamas is genocidal and wants a genocide against Israel. Israel would accept a 2 state solution if it got rid of Hamas. Hamas' manifesto accepts a 2 state solution with 1967's borders: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/5/2/hamas-accepts-palestinian-state-with-1967-borders Trump recognised Jerusalem as being Israel's capital, which is not very compatible with Palestine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTeapot Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 (edited) Edited May 17, 2021 by TheTeapot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 2 hours ago, HeliX said: Hamas' manifesto accepts a 2 state solution with 1967's borders: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/5/2/hamas-accepts-palestinian-state-with-1967-borders Trump recognised Jerusalem as being Israel's capital, which is not very compatible with Palestine. No Hamas does not accept a 2 state solution: "Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea," it said, referring to the Jordan River and Mediterranean Sea."However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus." It is quite a twisted mindset which claims "rejecting any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine from the river to the sea" means accepting a 2 state solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 4 minutes ago, Chinahand said: No Hamas does not accept a 2 state solution: "Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea," it said, referring to the Jordan River and Mediterranean Sea."However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus." It is quite a twisted mindset which claims "rejecting any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine from the river to the sea" means accepting a 2 state solution. You're right, that was my misreading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shake me up Judy Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 A Palestinian state and a two-state solution is long gone. They could have had their own state back in 1948 but rejected it. They've never wanted a two-state solution anyway, just the genocide of the Israeli people, to the last man, woman and child. Israel is the only democracy in the whole Middle East. Can anyone seriously imagine the Palestinians being another ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 9 minutes ago, Shake me up Judy said: A Palestinian state and a two-state solution is long gone. They could have had their own state back in 1948 but rejected it. They've never wanted a two-state solution anyway, just the genocide of the Israeli people, to the last man, woman and child. Israel is the only democracy in the whole Middle East. Can anyone seriously imagine the Palestinians being another ? How do you define democracy? Palestine has elections. And once again, comparing Israel to Palestine is not particularly fair. Israel gets billions in foreign aid, and immeasurable support. Palestinians have been forcibly evicted as more and more of their land is taken for half a dozen decades. In some cases, 3 generations of people have lived and died in the same refugee camp. That's not living. It's barely even surviving. Gaza is effectively an open air prison, the West Bank is under military rule, Israel frequently gives itself legal permission to do things like its "open fire" rule, which has resulted in the killings of medics, journalists and children by snipers. Israel controls the electricity, water and food into Gaza, often providing not enough - deliberately. There are reports today of Israel using white phosphorus (after disconnecting the electricity supplies, again.) It simply isn't possible for people to build a working state under those conditions. Nobody is suggesting Hamas has done no wrong. But Christ alive, there's scales of wrong. Israel is an oppressor. Terrorism almost always comes as a result of occupation and oppression. 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTeapot Posted May 18, 2021 Share Posted May 18, 2021 Gaza covid testing lab blown up. Guess that was a Hamas hideout too 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
display name Posted May 18, 2021 Share Posted May 18, 2021 1 hour ago, TheTeapot said: Gaza covid testing lab blown up. Guess that was a Hamas hideout too By now a hummus one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepyJoe Posted May 18, 2021 Share Posted May 18, 2021 6 hours ago, TheTeapot said: Gaza covid testing lab blown up. Guess that was a Hamas hideout too & the professor who ran it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted May 22, 2021 Share Posted May 22, 2021 I thought this episode of the Briefing Room from Radio 4 was a very good analysis of Hamas. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000w5jp 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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