Apple Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 https://www.three.fm/news/isle-of-man-news/poll-finds-assisted-dying-law-backed-by-manx-public/ This headline is not supported when it is only 97% of those polled. For such an important issue it needs to be factual. Very surprised at Allinson and Barber apparently nailing their colours to the mast at this stage. We desperately need to improve the quality of End of Life care before they do anything about this. Only then can we seriously debate this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dog's Dangly Bits Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 Anyone who's watched someone they love pass away from cancer will know that this sort of law would be a huge plus to many people. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apple Posted June 23, 2021 Author Share Posted June 23, 2021 Sadly I have watched people die in all sorts of circumstances. And sadly I also hear now from people whose family members have died in conditions they would not have chosen for themselves. We don't even have a Capacity Act yet so by what mechanism will Barber and Allinson devise a legal and honest system to ensure all rights are protected. I am not saying it is not needed eventually but we don't have sufficient protections built in yet. Besides, and I have to say this, I would not anyone on the island determine what constitutes a suitable process for this with all medico legal safeguards built in, never mind to ensure a comfortable, pain free and patient focussed death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcousticallyChallenged Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 Dying is a fundamental part of life. However, for those with terminal illnesses, this can involve a protracted and horrific period of suffering. We should allow those who are either at the stage of undue suffering, or nearing it, the autonomy to make their own choices. Anything else is barbaric. 13 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GD4ELI Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 2 minutes ago, AcousticallyChallenged said: Dying is a fundamental part of life. However, for those with terminal illnesses, this can involve a protracted and horrific period of suffering. We should allow those who are either at the stage of undue suffering, or nearing it, the autonomy to make their own choices. Anything else is barbaric. Well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GD4ELI Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 31 minutes ago, The Dog's Dangly Bits said: Anyone who's watched someone they love pass away from cancer will know that this sort of law would be a huge plus to many people. Friend of mine living in Holland did this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annoymouse Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 How would you improve end of life care? Currently you get given enough pain relief that isn’t enough to kill you, but you spend most of your days completely out of it, still aware of the pain and it still hurts to move and you have zero quality of life, your basically a vegetable, how do you improve that? Only those who’ve witnessed this happen should be allowed to have a say on the matter because it’s absolutely heart breaking for all involved, I don’t understand how anyone can vote against it? It’s amazing how people seem to have more empathy for animals than humans, perhaps ask your vet how many animals they put down last week to give you an idea of how many they put out of their misery? To be fair I have seen some people prolong the suffering in their animals because they’re completely deluded and don’t accept what the vet has told them, I suppose it’s similar to being told by a doctor that someone is brain dead, never going to recover and you need to agree to switch off the life support. 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apple Posted June 23, 2021 Author Share Posted June 23, 2021 48 minutes ago, AcousticallyChallenged said: We should allow those who are either at the stage of undue suffering, or nearing it, the autonomy to make their own choices. Anything else is barbaric. Quite right. Any one in a civilised society would agree and the Government should bring forward steps to ensure this. What I am saying is that there are some important steps to go through before we get to that stage. It is being looked at seriously in the UK. We do not have the skill, experience and the foundations to bring in legislation. It will only be done on the UK coat tails as most things are nowadays. It will be introduced as an expedient measure if we go down that route. Turning life support systems following scientific evidence of death to me is not debatable. It is the right thing to do (subject to family and medical agreement safeguards and agreements etc). Watching relatives die when food and fluids and basic care and treatment has been withdrawn is wrong. That is what upsets people. Added to that is the lack of communication, support and sometimes almost indifference to what is happening which can cause massive amounts of distress to those left behind. This who are the ones who need listening to. An issue for the Social Affairs Policy Committee perhaps. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annoymouse Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 Assisted dying might actually reduce the suicide rate and give people a bit more time, how many current suicides are due to a recent diagnosis of a terminal illness? I’ve previously said if I ever get diagnosed with Alzheimer’s or Dementia I’d rather kill myself than let my family go through that, trouble with that is you deteriorate without realising, so I’d have no choice but to do it early on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apple Posted June 23, 2021 Author Share Posted June 23, 2021 12 minutes ago, Annoymouse said: Assisted dying might actually reduce the suicide rate and give people a bit more time, how many current suicides are due to a recent diagnosis of a terminal illness? One of the most important aspects to the debate if I may say so. and something I would imagine everyone contemplates in their darker times. End of Life Care is happening every day on the island and urgently needs to be reviewed. It is about forward planning, consent and capacity and there are patients and families who can be left floundering at possibly the worst time of their lives. And of course now we have the "default" position that organs can be donated without your consent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annoymouse Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 Just now, Roxanne said: My mother said the same. “If I get like that then please shoot me”. Trouble is, it all happens so gradually that both she, and I had time to get used to it all. We actually had some lovely years together even after her personality changed. I wouldn’t have wanted to miss that, and I wouldn’t have wanted her grandchildren to miss it either. And she spent her last years at home surrounded by us all - even if most days she forgot about us all. I suppose every case is different but I couldn’t take the risk, if I get diagnosed I’m doing it, cruel to be kind and all that, not only that it’s the cost of these places, a lifetime of savings wiped out in a few years. Having watched someone turn into a shadow of their former self, they couldn’t sleep properly and couldn’t eat because their brain was playing tricks on them, accusing staff of stealing the strangest of things, getting angry when people wouldn’t listen to the bizarre accusations etc It was truly heartbreaking and it didn’t matter how much we tried to reassure them, we’d only calm them down enough until they next had a nap and it was back to square one. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annoymouse Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 17 minutes ago, Apple said: End of Life Care is happening every day on the island and urgently needs to be reviewed. It is about forward planning, consent and capacity and there are patients and families who can be left floundering at possibly the worst time of their lives. The trouble being people don’t make rational decisions within that moment in time, we found the forward planning/consent stages some of the most frustrating because it divided the family, unfortunately people can’t see past their own feelings. I don’t believe in keeping someone alive just because you can’t cope with the thought of them being dead, it’s not about how you feel, it’s about them and their quality of life. Unfortunately this is an emotive subject for many. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GD4ELI Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 20 minutes ago, Roxanne said: This is my greatest concern. Any legislation must be scrupulous. Theres a huge amount of division being bought into right now. I’ve hear enough about how ‘it’s all the oldies fault’ (for everything) to know there will undoubtedly come a time when old people will be deemed totally dispensable. Not now, or next year, but it’s coming. A cynic might think it’s all devised this way. Once legislation is in place, the slope may become slippery. It often does. That said, to treat a family human member with the same respect as one might a pet, is very welcome. Just so long as it’s scrupulously done. A pet can't make the decision, that's the difference. Assisted dying has to be the wish of the person while still fully compos mentis. You can't just bump off granny because she's becoming a nuisance. Follow the Dutch system, works well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annoymouse Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 (edited) 54 minutes ago, Roxanne said: Some people do this with their pets. Regardless of the subject, it’s wrong and totally selfish. I feel for you in this As to the family, when emotion rises, logic goes out of the window. The law must be completely clear and not open to interpretation. I suppose the difficulty is setting the criteria, for me it’s quality of life, if I get involved in an accident tomorrow and ended up quadriplegic with irreversible brain damage I’d definitely like to be put down, rather than be trapped in my own body and kept alive. Regardless of how hurtful that sounds for my family, I probably wouldn’t be allowed to make the decision in that instance, I’d probably be told I wouldn’t have the capacity, but if I could sign something now then I definitely would. Edited June 23, 2021 by Annoymouse 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrighty Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 1. If I fail physically and my mind remains I would like to be able to decide if and when my life can end, and be terminated quickly, cleanly, and painlessly. 2. If my mind fails I'd like to have both set advance criteria, and give the authority to have me 'put down' to a trusted next of kin - in my case my children. I know there have to be safeguards to stop people being coerced into suicide to avoid nursing home fees etc, but if that can be achieved, can any sane, compassionate, rational (i.e. take religion out of the debate) person object to points 1 and 2? 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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