Ann Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 https://media.tghn.org/medialibrary/2011/04/BMJ_No_7070_Volume_313_The_Nuremberg_Code.pdf The Nuremberg Code (1947), published in British Medical Journal No 7070 Volume 313: Page 1448, 7 December 1996 "The protagonists of the practice of human experimentation justify their views on the basis that such experiments yield results for the good of society that are unprocurable by other methods or means of study. All agree, however, that certain basic principles must be observed in order to satisfy moral, ethical and legal concepts: 1. The voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential. This means that the person involved should have legal capacity to give consent; should be so situated as to be able to exercise free power of choice, without the intervention of any element of force, fraud, deceit, duress, overreaching, or other ulterior form of constraint or coercion; and should have sufficient knowledge and comprehension of the elements of the subject matter involved as to enable him to make an understanding and enlightened decision. This latter element requires that before the acceptance of an affirmative decision by the experimental subject there should be made known to him the nature, duration, and purpose of the experiment; the method and means by which it is to be conducted; all inconveniences and hazards reasonably to be expected; and the effects upon his health or person which may possibly come from his participation in the experiment. The duty and responsibility for ascertaining the quality of the consent rests upon each individual who initiates, directs, or engages in the experiment. It is a personal duty and responsibility which may not be delegated to another with impunity." [Continues] 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apple Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 18 minutes ago, Ann said: The duty and responsibility for ascertaining the quality of the consent rests upon each individual who initiates, directs, or engages in the experiment. It is a personal duty and responsibility which may not be delegated to another with impunity." @Ann No dispute there from most I would think with this. However, I have some close contacts who do not want them selves or their children vaccinated, with anything. I have spoken to them to try and understand, and with Courtney, and I have also read his book. I disagree with the stance of no vaccination but sadly agree with the right to choose. The talk in various circles especially on workforces in the USA about mandatory vaccinations are worrying as to the potential future implications for any treatments that can be imposed by political will. My main concerns is related to end of life care situations and also organ donations. It is a fraught road and one we must go down only with caution. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTF Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 36 minutes ago, Ann said: "The protagonists of the practice of human experimentation justify their views on the basis that such experiments yield results for the good of society that are unprocurable by other methods or means of study. All agree, however, that certain basic principles must be observed in order to satisfy moral, ethical and legal concepts: so why don't they use their own families as it's such a noble cause ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ann Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 40 minutes ago, Apple said: I have some close contacts who do not want themselves or their children vaccinated .... agree with the right to choose. The talk in various circles especially on workforces in the USA about mandatory vaccinations are worrying .... My main concerns is related to end of life care situations and also organ donations....." I share your well-articulated concerns. Fortunately the law is on our side: https://americasfrontlinedoctors.org/legal/vaccines-the-law/ Vaccines and The Law "The law is clear. An experimental vaccine cannot be mandated. We want you to be armed with resources to advocate for yourself and your loved ones. Here is a letter template to utilize related to your employer or school attempting to mandate the Covid-19 experimental vaccine candidates. Please edit the portion in red, specific to you, and distribute. Send to principals, superintendents, department of education officials, managers, corporate officers, etc. Put everyone on notice! Send on your own or unite with others’ signatures in support of your movement. Informed and united people are truly the greatest threat to tyranny!" Be Part of a Broader Suit "There is no cost to you to participate in our broad litigation. If you decide to proceed with the case, you cannot do so anonymously, as your name will appear (with others) in the court proceedings." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slinkydevil Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 8 hours ago, Ann said: https://summit.news/2021/08/11/study-finds-most-highly-educated-americans-are-also-the-most-vaccine-hesitant/ Most Highly Educated Americans Are Also the Most Vaccine Hesitant "... the highest hesitancy was among those holding a PhD.” Who wudda thought hey? The most intellectually curious and informed people are those most likely to know about the type of research findings to which I linked in this thread? Boggles the mind I tell ya. Perhaps the "get vaxxed!" types on this thread can enlighten us. Paul Watson is an Infowars racist conspiracy dickhead. Makes good money on his YouTube channel though making shit up for people like you to consume. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevster Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 15 minutes ago, Ann said: I share your well-articulated concerns. Fortunately the law is on our side: https://americasfrontlinedoctors.org/legal/vaccines-the-law/ Vaccines and The Law "The law is clear. An experimental vaccine cannot be mandated. We want you to be armed with resources to advocate for yourself and your loved ones. Here is a letter template to utilize related to your employer or school attempting to mandate the Covid-19 experimental vaccine candidates. Please edit the portion in red, specific to you, and distribute. Send to principals, superintendents, department of education officials, managers, corporate officers, etc. Put everyone on notice! Send on your own or unite with others’ signatures in support of your movement. Informed and united people are truly the greatest threat to tyranny!" Be Part of a Broader Suit "There is no cost to you to participate in our broad litigation. If you decide to proceed with the case, you cannot do so anonymously, as your name will appear (with others) in the court proceedings." Ann, you do not live in America Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 20 minutes ago, kevster said: Ann, you do not live in America While they say the law is clear, they don't quote what the law is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Login Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 (edited) 22 hours ago, Ann said: Why I support informed choice and consent When you were asked “What’s your goal here” and “what are you trying to communicate to us” you replied “Why I support informed choice and consent” I doubt anybody here would be against that but you are not forced to have the Covid 19 vaccine without giving your consent in the UK or the Isle of Man and I am not aware of many if any countries where you are. I am speaking in general terms here as there are cases where it is the party with legal responsibility who gives the consent rather than the recipient. You state you support informed choice but it seems your posts are all very much in one direction. If you were genuinely trying to inform would you not post both sides of the argument or do you post on say anti vaccine sites the evidence that the vaccine does not make you magnetic, is not made from foetuses and does not include a microchip. Do you post the evidence that Covid 19 is far more harmful than flu, that the risks of dying from Covid 19 if you are unvaccinated are far higher than the risks of dying from any reaction to having the Covid 19 vaccine.? If not then you are hardly supporting informed choice as that suggests you are putting forward all the evidence both for and against vaccination impartially. I am not sure whether it was you or another poster that referred to the conspiracy theory that the vaccine was designed to kill off a large part of the population in roughly three years time. That such a theory is used as an argument against vaccination is, to me, a strong argument that those arguing against vaccination do not have any sensible evidence to support their case. If they did they would not resort to using a crack pot argument that the average bright 11 year old would rubbish in seconds. 10 seconds thought would indicate the theory is nonsense as there are several different vaccines developed by different people in different parts of the world. Are they all seeking to kill off most of the human population? Except it is not most as kids are not vaccinated, neither will huge numbers who live in poor or in accessible parts of the word. On top of that if you are say Russia or China and wanted to take over the world you would just inject a placebo. Does anybody really think Russia would trust the USA & vice versa. A bit like a suicide pact. Would you go first and trust the other party to follow? Edited August 12, 2021 by Lost Login 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ann Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 55 minutes ago, Gladys said: While they say the law is clear, they don't quote what the law is. https://media.tghn.org/medialibrary/2011/04/BMJ_No_7070_Volume_313_The_Nuremberg_Code.pdf The Nuremberg Code (1947), published in British Medical Journal No 7070 Volume 313: Page 1448, 7 December 1996 Gladys did you see this link (and quote) posted earlier? Did you listen to any of the lawyers and doctors (video links provided earlier) discussing the basis for the legal action now underway in various parts of the world? Naturally details of such case preparations are initially confidential. However for an idea of general public interest in this subject, look at viewing figures under the Anna de Buisseret video -- they are moving like jabbers' bowels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 1 hour ago, Ann said: https://media.tghn.org/medialibrary/2011/04/BMJ_No_7070_Volume_313_The_Nuremberg_Code.pdf The Nuremberg Code (1947), published in British Medical Journal No 7070 Volume 313: Page 1448, 7 December 1996 Gladys did you see this link (and quote) posted earlier? Did you listen to any of the lawyers and doctors (video links provided earlier) discussing the basis for the legal action now underway in various parts of the world? Naturally details of such case preparations are initially confidential. However for an idea of general public interest in this subject, look at viewing figures under the Anna de Buisseret video -- they are moving like jabbers' bowels. No, I didn't, but I do see that in the introductory paragraphs it says that doctors must weigh the risk against the benefits. To date, I have not seen any reliable information that shows that the risks outweigh the benefits. There are grandstanding demonstrations of magnetism in what can only be described as uncontrolled and unverified circumstances, claims about some detriment to occur in three years, small numbers but medically recognised cases of blood clotting which has changed who is advised to have which vaccine. On the other hand, it is clear that we have seen devastating mortality, long covid, overrun of medical facilities worldwide. These things have led me to conclude that the risks of not having the vaccine far outweigh the risks of having it. Furthermore, not only does the vaccine protect the individual but there is evidence it helps in protecting the unvaccinated. So, I think that those who choose not to have it should be thankful that the majority of the population is willing to accept the mainstream advice to allow those people to choose not to rather than embark on an evangelical campaign. I have made my choice to protect me and those close to me have chosen also without evangelising with solid reliable arguments as to why those who choose not to are wrong, not just for themselves but for society. You have chosen not to, your choice, but please don't berate those who have exercised their choice differently with frankly lunatic articles and links. You have made your choice and must accept the consequences. I have made mine and have to accept the consequences also. What I will not do is jump on a bandwagon against the medical profession who by and large are acting with the best intent in good faith and for the greater good. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hampsterkahn Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 (edited) Some of us will have steeled ourselves to delve into history to learn what happened in Nazi concentration camps, and in particular about the depravity in the guise of medical science - perverted science, by Joseph Mengle and his ilk, and also about the 21 “Doctors trials” in Nuremberg that followed after the war. ( Mengele , wasn’t there, he escaped to S. America) To even contemplate and equate what happened there with our NHS staff trying their best to reduce morbidity and mortality in our community from this virus , is not just reprehensible , it is utterly beneath contempt.Sadly such rhetoric is becoming steadily more raucous and threatening. Nuremberg Code 1. - regarding “Consent “ This has absolutely no possible relevance in this situation. This was established in the shadow of the atrocities perpetrated on the poor souls who could not object or avoid being painfully mutilated. “Experimentation without consent” almost makes it sound an abstract legal technicality rather than the outrageous brutal, moral and humanitarian obscenity it was. There is no comparison between people being herded off cattle trucks and forced to (read it for yourselves if you have the stomach ) be the unwilling victims of the most vile proceedures with no prospect afterwards other than the merciful release of death, and the 40,000 plus volunteers in free societies around the world in late 2019 and early 2020 who very nobly and bravely signed up as volunteers for the initial Covid vaccine trials. Since then over 4.5 billion vaccs.have been given world wide, each and everyone requiring consent. They are not compulsory - If you don’t want one - simply, don’t have one. Edited August 13, 2021 by hampsterkahn 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philwebs Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 Here is a long article on the human condition. I doubt is most of you will have the patience to read and consider it: Why Do Some People Support Tyranny While Others Defy It? "There is a fundamental question that haunts the pages of history and it is one that has never been addressed in a satisfactory manner. There are many schools of thought on why and how tyranny rises in any given society" https://alt-market.us/why-do-some-people-support-tyranny-while-others-defy-it/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 2 hours ago, philwebs said: Here is a long article on the human condition. I doubt is most of you will have the patience to read and consider it: Why Do Some People Support Tyranny While Others Defy It? "There is a fundamental question that haunts the pages of history and it is one that has never been addressed in a satisfactory manner. There are many schools of thought on why and how tyranny rises in any given society" https://alt-market.us/why-do-some-people-support-tyranny-while-others-defy-it/ Depends if you think being given the choice to vax is tyranny or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Dearden Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 12 hours ago, Ann said: https://media.tghn.org/medialibrary/2011/04/BMJ_No_7070_Volume_313_The_Nuremberg_Code.pdf The Nuremberg Code (1947), published in British Medical Journal No 7070 Volume 313: Page 1448, 7 December 1996 Gladys did you see this link (and quote) posted earlier? Did you listen to any of the lawyers and doctors (video links provided earlier) discussing the basis for the legal action now underway in various parts of the world? Naturally details of such case preparations are initially confidential. However for an idea of general public interest in this subject, look at viewing figures under the Anna de Buisseret video -- they are moving like jabbers' bowels. You are still not telling us what your message is? The links are very interesting but I can't tell if you are trying to highlight that a small minority of the world believes in some very peculiar ideas or if you believe that we are being fooled and need to think again. If the former, your work is done. If the latter, you need to tell us what you think is happening and why and we can then ponder and consider as we see fit. To just throw out links is wasting everyone's time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Dearden Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 4 hours ago, philwebs said: Here is a long article on the human condition. I doubt is most of you will have the patience to read and consider it: Why Do Some People Support Tyranny While Others Defy It? "There is a fundamental question that haunts the pages of history and it is one that has never been addressed in a satisfactory manner. There are many schools of thought on why and how tyranny rises in any given society" https://alt-market.us/why-do-some-people-support-tyranny-while-others-defy-it/ If you know we are too impatient to read the article, perhaps you could summarise for us in a sentence or two. Given that the WHO believe that 204m people have caught the bug and 4.4m have died with or from it, is it really tyranny to offer a vaccine against it? Perhaps I don't understand the meaning of tyranny? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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