Brexit Penny Dropping?

[The Voice of Reason]

46 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

So whilst right wing parties may increasingly be winning votes its only Hungary where they have any real power.

Italy maybe?

[P.K.]

44 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Well that’s all subjective isn’t it?

No.

[manxman1980]

45 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Well that’s all subjective isn’t it?

I would like you to expand on this.  I would have thought comparing details of trade agreements would be a fairly factual exercise.

42 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Italy maybe?

I doubt it.  Italy has more clout post Brexit but they know they need the support of France and Germany.

[The Voice of Reason]

7 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

I would like you to expand on this.  I would have thought comparing details of trade agreements would be a fairly factual exercise.

Of course comparing details of trade agreements is a fairly factual exercise.

However assessing the benefits of each is not.

Consider mobile phone contracts. You know what each one costs, duration of contract term, minutes, texts, data allowances etc. All these variables. In this the conditions.What contract might be the best for one might not be the best for another.

You may think EE is the best contract to have I may think Vodaphone because of the different weights we attach to each variable.

And international trade agreements are a tad more complex than mobile phone contracts 

So  making these comparisons is just not that simple as you might think.

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by The Voice of Reason

[manxman1980]

50 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Of course comparing details of trade agreements is a fairly factual exercise.

However assessing the benefits of each is not.

Consider mobile phone contracts. You know what each one costs, duration of contract term, minutes, texts, data allowances etc. All these variables. In this the conditions.What contract might be the best for one might not be the best for another.

You may think EE is the best contract to have I may think Vodaphone because of the different weights we attach to each variable.

And international trade agreements are a tad more complex than mobile phone contracts 

So  making these comparisons is just not that simple as you might think.

 

So you can't name any trade agreements that are better? 

As for mobile phones... how are the mobile roaming charges going?  Remarkable how quickly roaming charges were reintroduced by companies for UK numbers being used in the EU.

[P.K.]

2 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

So you can't name any trade agreements that are better? 

Well @The Voice of Reason could have named the trade deals struck with Australia and New Zealand by Liz Truss which were certainly better for them. However they were of "negative value" to the UK...

Which is inevitable really when the whole planet knows the UK is desperate for trade deals and now it lacks the financial and market clout that comes with membership of the EU.

Bottom line to deliberately make it more difficult, more time consuming and therefore more expensive to trade with your biggest trading partner that sits right on your doorstep can only be a fucking stupid thing to do!

And you can stick that in your black passport...

[P.K.]

16 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

You can be a member of one of the world’s biggest trading blocs. But if you are just one of twenty seven countries, each with their own self interests it doesn’t really count for much. Witness the turmoil the EU has been thrown into with Hungary breaking ranks about any Ukraine succession.

@The Voice of Reason

Actually they're demonstrating their country's sovereignty...

[The Voice of Reason]

37 minutes ago, P.K. said:

@The Voice of Reason

Actually they're demonstrating their country's sovereignty...

Not quite but you’re kind of getting there.

Sovereignty can be understood as the authority of a state to govern itself and determine its own laws.

You could say they are demonstrating their desire for sovereignty.

Let’s see how this situation pans out shall we? The one against the twenty six.

[P.K.]

@The Voice of Reason

So patronising.

It occurs to me that I might just know a little bit more about sovereignty than you do.

So you do agree that to strike any trade deal you have to give some of your precious "sovereignty" away?

And hopefully not too much like Liz Truss managed...

[The Voice of Reason]

5 hours ago, P.K. said:

@The Voice of Reason

So patronising.

It occurs to me that I might just know a little bit more about sovereignty than you do.

So you do agree that to strike any trade deal you have to give some of your precious "sovereignty" away?

How many times are you going to repeat this?
 

No I don’t agree. As a sovereign nation, and as in any other walk of life, you look at the terms of an agreement and come to a value judgement as to whether that deal is good for you.

Trade deals are deals of mutual cooperation in which there is an expectation of mutual benefit. That’s the essence of such deals. (One party may be perceived to have a greater advantage than the other but that’s subjective.)
 

Going back to our mobile phone contract analogy. You sign up for one because you think it’s the best deal for you. The provider thinks it’s a good deal because they get your money.
There is a potential downside for you because if you want to end the contract early you may have to pay an exit fee or keep making the monthly payments until the contract expires.
But it’s your independent decision to enter into the contract. No one is forcing you into it.

So the UK retains its sovereignty by being able to decide what deals it makes ( even if some suggest that may not be the best deal) rather than being shepherded with twenty seven other nations into deals which may also not be the best. Or the best for say ten of those nations and a rubbish one for the other seventeen)

[woolley]

And it isn't just about trade. In fact, it's mostly NOT about trade.

[P.K.]

12 hours ago, woolley said:

And it isn't just about trade. In fact, it's mostly NOT about trade.

When you're playing with people's livelihoods then it bloody well should be...!

[P.K.]

14 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

So the UK retains its sovereignty by being able to decide what deals it makes ( even if some suggest that may not be the best deal) rather than being shepherded with twenty seven other nations into deals which may also not be the best. Or the best for say ten of those nations and a rubbish one for the other seventeen)

Minus the market size and trading clout of membership of the EU of course the much diminished UK will NEVER be able to strike better trade deals on it's own. It's bloody obvious! As has been shown with Liz Truss signing trade deals of "negative value" to the UK, Badenoch's desperate Trans-Pacific Partnership farrago etc etc.

"The easiest trade deals in history" "We hold all the cards" and so forth were just more Brexiteer lies to take in the hard of thinking. As it's a lot easier to believe simple lies than it ever will be to understand more complex truths it worked.

Personally I think we should be able to expect a higher standard of behaviour from our elected representatives but unfortunately we had the worst PM and the worst Administration in living memory and probably for ever...

[The Voice of Reason]

7 minutes ago, P.K. said:

Minus the market size and trading clout of membership of the EU of course the much diminished UK will NEVER be able to strike better trade deals on it's own. It's bloody obvious! As has been shown with Liz Truss signing trade deals of "negative value" to the UK, Badenoch's desperate Trans-Pacific Partnership farrago etc etc.

"The easiest trade deals in history" "We hold all the cards" and so forth were just more Brexiteer lies to take in the hard of thinking. As it's a lot easier to believe simple lies than it ever will be to understand more complex truths it worked.

Personally I think we should be able to expect a higher standard of behaviour from our elected representatives but unfortunately we had the worst PM and the worst Administration in living memory and probably for ever...

I’m not sure how I can make it any clearer.

Take 27 people at random who have purchased house insurance. Do you think they will have all been taken out with the same company?

I will  help you out, the answer is No. Because each one of the 27 will have determined their individual insurance needs and selected the insurer they think is offering the best policy for them. OK you might be able to negotiate a discount if you club together with the other 26 but you’re unlikely to get the policy that best suits your requirements, or may end up with one that is not at all suitable. That is what is bloody obvious !

In your day to day life do you let others decide things for you? Or do you have the confidence to make your own decisions.

[manxman1980]

14 hours ago, woolley said:

And it isn't just about trade. In fact, it's mostly NOT about trade.

Would you care to point out anything that has happened post Brexit that could not have happened had the UK still been in the EU that isn't a trade deal?

I mean actually had an impact not some vague notion about sovereignty and taking back control.