woolley Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 8 hours ago, P.K. said: I personally believe that the U.K. cannot move forward from brexit Most of us have and we're just getting on with life. Not many are as obsessive as you, PK. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 (edited) @woolley The statement of mine you quoted is conditional. You know, the bit that you left off. An accident I'm sure... So when do we get to see the sunlit uplands of your precious brexit...? I'm not obsessed but I do believe in holding the guilty to account for deliberately diminishing the UK in so many ways and polarising the populace with an even deeper schism than even Thatcher managed! This very well written, as per, piece in the Guardian caught my eye: "Sanguinity is one of our best traits as a people, and long may we abhor the rush of blood, but still I think we have a problem with memory and righteous rage retention. It is understandable. Grudges can only be held for so long and it’s good to forgive and forget, not least because civilised humans must be able to move society forward without the debilitating weight of undue baggage. The pain of slight, disappointment and loss can’t stay front and centre. A measure of amnesia is vital to progress. "But responsibility matters, competence matters, failure matters. And surely it matters that those who egregiously fail us all aren’t allowed to trundle on in public life. Emerging from the wreckage they created without reckoning or cost to careers and reputations. Once upon a time the failed and disgraced were expected to pay penance by leaving the spotlight, acknowledging those failures and shortcomings with pursuit of an uncelebrated, quiet life. Now they seek millions from speaking tours, immediate returns to prominence and comfy jobs such as Foreign Secretary. "What to do about this? In all ways, be decent. Respect our values, our laws, our democracy and the political process. "But do wise up; don’t look at these people and pretend nothing very much happened." A lot of people have wised up to the fact that they were taken for fools, but there's still a way to go... Edited January 2 by P.K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 2 hours ago, P.K. said: @woolley The statement of mine you quoted is conditional. You know, the bit that you left off. An accident I'm sure... So when do we get to see the sunlit uplands of your precious brexit...? I'm not obsessed but I do believe in holding the guilty to account for deliberately diminishing the UK in so many ways and polarising the populace with an even deeper schism than even Thatcher managed! This very well written, as per, piece in the Guardian caught my eye: "Sanguinity is one of our best traits as a people, and long may we abhor the rush of blood, but still I think we have a problem with memory and righteous rage retention. It is understandable. Grudges can only be held for so long and it’s good to forgive and forget, not least because civilised humans must be able to move society forward without the debilitating weight of undue baggage. The pain of slight, disappointment and loss can’t stay front and centre. A measure of amnesia is vital to progress. "But responsibility matters, competence matters, failure matters. And surely it matters that those who egregiously fail us all aren’t allowed to trundle on in public life. Emerging from the wreckage they created without reckoning or cost to careers and reputations. Once upon a time the failed and disgraced were expected to pay penance by leaving the spotlight, acknowledging those failures and shortcomings with pursuit of an uncelebrated, quiet life. Now they seek millions from speaking tours, immediate returns to prominence and comfy jobs such as Foreign Secretary. "What to do about this? In all ways, be decent. Respect our values, our laws, our democracy and the political process. "But do wise up; don’t look at these people and pretend nothing very much happened." A lot of people have wised up to the fact that they were taken for fools, but there's still a way to go... “ I’m not obsessed” Yeah right, doesn’t sound like it. Time and time again you have been invited to just let it go. We know that you’re not happy with Brexit, fair enough. You’re entitled to hold that view. But to say that it “ polarised the populace with an even greater deeper schism than even Thatcher managed” shows a complete lack of understanding of, and trivialises, the damage that that she wrought on the populace. Brexit came about as a result of a democratic referendum. It was won by one side with a 52%/ 48% majority. It did not in any way mirror, say the miners strike which she provoked, pitting father against son, brother against brother, county against county, creating scars which remain unhealed to this day. I don’t think 40 years in the future in 2056 the 2016 Brexit referendum will have anything like that legacy. And that’s not even taking into account the poll tax etc Your quotation from the Guardian is also conditional. I note you missed out the bit about Mr Magoo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 3 hours ago, P.K. said: @woolley So when do we get to see the sunlit uplands of your precious brexit...? This is it. Freedom. Enjoy!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 @The Voice of Reason Thatcher was also democratically elected as a MP and led her party to several democratic election victories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 6 hours ago, manxman1980 said: @The Voice of Reason Thatcher was also democratically elected as a MP and led her party to several democratic election victories. Indeed she did. But that didn’t make her a good person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 2 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said: Indeed she did. But that didn’t make her a good person. No, it doesn't. Neither does the result of the referendum make Brexit a good idea. It just reflects the views of the people voting in those ballots and whether those results are a good thing need to be viewed later once the impact is understood. In the meantime we keep looking for short term meaningful gains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 10 hours ago, Freggyragh said: Feels a bit like that on here sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 11 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: No, it doesn't. Neither does the result of the referendum make Brexit a good idea. Quite true. It just so happens that it is. As I said, we are extremely fortunate. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 1 minute ago, woolley said: Quite true. It just so happens that it is. As I said, we are extremely fortunate. Ironic statement given the GIF you have quoted above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 56 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: Ironic statement given the GIF you have quoted above. Not really. I've been banging my head against the wall for 8 years on this (and similar) thread(s). I restrict it now because it's all been said multiple times..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Non-Believer Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Just now, woolley said: Not really. I've been banging my head against the wall for 8 years on this (and similar) thread(s). I restrict it now because it's all been said multiple times..... You predicted that the EU and the Euro would have collapsed by now too. We're still waiting for that, along with all the ensuing countries that would be clamouring to leave the EU when they saw what a success Brexit was for Britain... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 1 minute ago, Non-Believer said: You predicted that the EU and the Euro would have collapsed by now too. We're still waiting for that, along with all the ensuing countries that would be clamouring to leave the EU when they saw what a success Brexit was for Britain... History is a long game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 12 minutes ago, woolley said: Not really. I've been banging my head against the wall for 8 years on this (and similar) thread(s). I restrict it now because it's all been said multiple times..... You know that I am going to ask for examples of what has improved as a result of Brexit. I know you will answer with "sovereignty" or "freedom". I will respond by asking you to show me examples of what the UK has done with this newly found freedom that it could not do before. At which point PK or Voice of Reason will jump in to have a back and forward. 9 minutes ago, woolley said: History is a long game. So brexit is good if in 50 years there has been some improvement on where we are today? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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