P.K. Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 On 1/2/2024 at 10:49 PM, The Voice of Reason said: “ I’m not obsessed” Yeah right, doesn’t sound like it. Time and time again you have been invited to just let it go. We know that you’re not happy with Brexit, fair enough. You’re entitled to hold that view. But to say that it “ polarised the populace with an even greater deeper schism than even Thatcher managed” shows a complete lack of understanding of, and trivialises, the damage that that she wrought on the populace. Brexit came about as a result of a democratic referendum. It was won by one side with a 52%/ 48% majority. It did not in any way mirror, say the miners strike which she provoked, pitting father against son, brother against brother, county against county, creating scars which remain unhealed to this day. I don’t think 40 years in the future in 2056 the 2016 Brexit referendum will have anything like that legacy. And that’s not even taking into account the poll tax etc Your quotation from the Guardian is also conditional. I note you missed out the bit about Mr Magoo. I missed the bit out about Magoo because I had no idea who he was. Were you about during those dreadful times? Because it doesn't sound like it... Now the government of the day have a duty of care to ALL of their citizens. However the miners pretty much brought down Heath and Thatcher was determined to emasculate them so it couldn't happen again with her simple political dogma to wit "They don't vote tory so fuck 'em" and set too closing down pits because North Sea oil and gas was coming on stream. It was deliberately and desperately cruel. Whole communities left to wither on the vine with no assistance at all from central government. Now just about everyone was of the opinion that things had to change, no question. But not the spiteful and heartless way she did it. So she split the country. The thing is that pit closures and the decline of traditional industries etc had no effect whatsoever on the tory heartlands in "the smug and silver south" * and hence the "North and South" divide was widened. Not that Thatcher cared of course. She knew that all she had to do was look after tory voters to stay in power and it's been like that ever since. Brexit is completely different especially in the way the whole farrago was built around lies, falsehoods and the pursuit of personal gain. Quite disgusting really. And now we all have to pay for it.... * The original WS quote was "the smug and silver Trent" and l thought it very appropriate for the tory heartlands so I used it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Colombe Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 State of Rees-Mogg. His Brexit actually put a stop to free trade. What a dick. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 On 1/3/2024 at 8:49 PM, The Voice of Reason said: And when she won those election victories democratically, did people say “ oh she only won because she lied, made false representations and people didn’t know what they were voting for”. No, she won fair and square ( much as it pains me to say it) so why can’t Remainers show the same respect to the result of the 2016 Brexit referendum? There was a degree of lying and spin - she was a politician after all. And there were valid charges against the tabloids for distortion. But nobody expected Labour to shut up after the election. They challenged her in Parliament, marched in the streets, petitioned for what they believed in. In fact it's leader had an official post - Leader of the Opposition. People are only saying that falsehoods influenced the referendum in 2016, because there were falsehoods. Brexit is playing out very differently to how it was portrayed - that's people's real experience. And the people leading the Brexit Campaign have been shown time and time again on other matters to be liars. A referendum is just a snap-shot of what the opinion is at a given moment based on the information available at that time. People change their minds if the information proves inaccurate, or the outcome fails to match what they were promised. Some people come of age and others die or move abroad. Just as one Parliament can't bind its successors, people in the future are allowed to conclude that a referendum got it wrong. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 7 hours ago, P.K. said: I missed the bit out about Magoo because I had no idea who he was. Were you about during those dreadful times? Because it doesn't sound like it... Now the government of the day have a duty of care to ALL of their citizens. However the miners pretty much brought down Heath and Thatcher was determined to emasculate them so it couldn't happen again with her simple political dogma to wit "They don't vote tory so fuck 'em" and set too closing down pits because North Sea oil and gas was coming on stream. It was deliberately and desperately cruel. Whole communities left to wither on the vine with no assistance at all from central government. Now just about everyone was of the opinion that things had to change, no question. But not the spiteful and heartless way she did it. So she split the country. The thing is that pit closures and the decline of traditional industries etc had no effect whatsoever on the tory heartlands in "the smug and silver south" * and hence the "North and South" divide was widened. Not that Thatcher cared of course. She knew that all she had to do was look after tory voters to stay in power and it's been like that ever since. I can assure you I was very much about in those dreadful times. I drove a van then and was stopped every few miles by non local policemen demanding I opened the doors so they could check I wasn’t carrying or smuggling flying pickets around and being spoken down to as if I was a piece of shit. It was like a police state, well not like a police state, it was a police state. I saw at first hand all you describe above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 5 hours ago, Declan said: There was a degree of lying and spin - she was a politician after all. And there were valid charges against the tabloids for distortion. But nobody expected Labour to shut up after the election. They challenged her in Parliament, marched in the streets, petitioned for what they believed in. In fact it's leader had an official post - Leader of the Opposition. People are only saying that falsehoods influenced the referendum in 2016, because there were falsehoods. Brexit is playing out very differently to how it was portrayed - that's people's real experience. And the people leading the Brexit Campaign have been shown time and time again on other matters to be liars. A referendum is just a snap-shot of what the opinion is at a given moment based on the information available at that time. People change their minds if the information proves inaccurate, or the outcome fails to match what they were promised. Some people come of age and others die or move abroad. Just as one Parliament can't bind its successors, people in the future are allowed to conclude that a referendum got it wrong. Of course politicians of all hue put their own spin on things to present themselves or their party in the best light. It’s all part of it and has been for centuries. You would have to be incredibly naive to give any credibility to the manifesto promises of any political party pre election. Like there has been a relentless campaign to discredit the Brexit campaign and all things post Brexit so much so that it has become almost accepted wisdom that it was a mistake. I will concede that the anti Brexit lobby have made a much better fist of influencing people’s perceptions of the effects of Brexit than supporters of it have. You say that Brexit is playing out very differently to how it was portrayed, but in reality is it? Yes it’s not so seamless to cross European borders but with the removal of freedom of movement as a consequence of Brexit, this can’t be portrayed as being unforeseen. And yes the UK has had its share of economic woes as have all the remaining 27 members of the EU. The difference is that they can’t blame them on the Brexit bogeyman. “Just as one Parliament can't bind its successors, people in the future are allowed to conclude that a referendum got it wrong. “ Well no, people in the future are allowed to opine that they would have preferred the result to have gone the other way, just like people in the future may well say thank God, the referendum went the way we think it should have done. I wouldn’t want the Conservatives to win another general election in the UK knowing they would implement policies I wouldn’t agree with, but if they did I wouldn’t be so presumptuous to declare that the electorate “ got it wrong” just because it wasn’t the result I wanted. And that is the essence of Remainership I’m afraid 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 21 hours ago, Freggyragh said: Thanks to Brexit a proper Englishman can now dump proper English shit into a proper English river. (Well, the companies are mostly foreign owned, but you get the point). The passports are navy blue again (I know that decision could have been taken without losing 4% of the economy, but nevermind), and now, finally, wine can theoretically be sold in 568ml bottles. (Can't remember that on the side of a bus, maybe it was one of Cameron's great demands?), lots of the skilled forrins have left (so we save money on having things like hospitals actually working), we get to queue longer at airports, keep bureaucrats and red tape producers in business, fatten the profits of roam charging phone companies, and the South of England (and possibly Rwanda) gets the benefit of many, many more refugees. OK, the trade deal situation is laughable, Northern Ireland is no longer a full member of the UK, and Woolley's tungsten bulbs haven't gone back into production — but it's only eight years since the referendum, it's bound to get better in a half-century or so. Only 4% of the economy is it? A lot better then Project Fear would have it. Cheap at the price and we get to make our own laws. I've heard it claimed that sarcasm is the highest form of intelligence. Alas, not in the hands of Freggy. As for incandescent bulbs, things have moved on somewhat, and we now have the energy saving variety for most applications. They are greatly improved in performance from the early specimens and, as ever, I am eager to embrace genuine progress. I do have one outlier, and that's Mrs W's bedside lamp. She absolutely insists on "proper" light for her reading and is completely immovable on the matter. She has plenty more bulbs in stock too. I think she's a little disappointed in me for going over to the dark side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 8 hours ago, La Colombe said: State of Rees-Mogg. His Brexit actually put a stop to free trade. What a dick. Surely in this case it's new EU rules that are the problem. It actually says "new EU rules". Sinister organisation that makes trade conditional on taking its diktat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 8 hours ago, Declan said: There was a degree of lying and spin - she was a politician after all. And there were valid charges against the tabloids for distortion. But nobody expected Labour to shut up after the election. They challenged her in Parliament, marched in the streets, petitioned for what they believed in. In fact it's leader had an official post - Leader of the Opposition. People are only saying that falsehoods influenced the referendum in 2016, because there were falsehoods. Brexit is playing out very differently to how it was portrayed - that's people's real experience. And the people leading the Brexit Campaign have been shown time and time again on other matters to be liars. A referendum is just a snap-shot of what the opinion is at a given moment based on the information available at that time. People change their minds if the information proves inaccurate, or the outcome fails to match what they were promised. Some people come of age and others die or move abroad. Just as one Parliament can't bind its successors, people in the future are allowed to conclude that a referendum got it wrong. Brexit is playing out very differently to how it was portrayed. Of course it is. Everything in the entire world is playing out very differently to how it was expected to in 2016. A lot has happened 8 years on, including Covid, lockdown, global supply issues, gas shock, inflation, wars. It still is happening globally and embraces the state of the EU as well as the UK and elsewhere. I accept that nothing is cast in stone for ever. That would be a ridiculous stance to try to defend. People will change their mind about all kinds of things. Maybe there won't even be a UK in the future, or an EU for that matter. I never thought I would see the fall of the USSR in my lifetime, but it collapsed like a house of cards, and here we are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 11 minutes ago, woolley said: Surely in this case it's new EU rules that are the problem. It actually says "new EU rules". Sinister organisation that makes trade conditional on taking its diktat. Because it's run by evil Goblins intent on world domination n'est ce pas...? Thanks Woolster. All your paranoia encapsulated in a single post... Mwaaahahahahahahaha!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 Just now, P.K. said: Because it's run by evil Goblins intent on world domination n'est ce pas...? Thanks Woolster. All your paranoia encapsulated in a single post... Mwaaahahahahahahaha!!!!!! Makes more sense than blaming Brexit. Not at all paranoid, but I am lucid. To blame the UK because the EU introduces a restrictive rule just proves the level of brainwashing at work in the minds of EU supporters. There really is no need for this sinister nonsense. Get rid of the EU and its restrictive practices and everyone can trade freely. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 10 hours ago, woolley said: Get rid of the EU and its restrictive practices and everyone can trade freely. The UK is still trading with it's biggest customer. It's just your totally stupid and completely unnecessary brexit, driven by a mixture of paranoia and racism, has made trade harder, more time consuming and thus more expensive. So less profitable. You must be so proud of diminishing the UK... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 I see the Express has got upset at the EU for leaving the UK out of a high speed rail scheme... https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1849136/eu-countries-britain-transport Honestly, you couldn't make it up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 37 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: I see the Express has got upset at the EU for leaving the UK out of a high speed rail scheme... https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1849136/eu-countries-britain-transport Honestly, you couldn't make it up! They did. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 22 minutes ago, woolley said: They did. I assume you mean the EU, in which case who cares? My point was I do not understand why the Express was complaining that the UK had been excluded from an EU scheme! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 1 hour ago, manxman1980 said: I assume you mean the EU, in which case who cares? My point was I do not understand why the Express was complaining that the UK had been excluded from an EU scheme! To keep the brexit fantasy alive of course. Why else...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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