Brexit Penny Dropping?

[woolley]

50 minutes ago, Freggyragh said:

I'm appalled by this attitude that thousands of people losing their livelihoods and Britain losing its steel industry was somehow inevitable. It was not. Choosing to be treated as a third country and therefore subject to EU carbon taxes was A CHOICE. I know people based their choices on a range of dumb notions and feelings from xenophobia, trusting Boris Johnson in the NHS, nostalgia for tungsten lightbulbs, navy blue passports or bendy bananas, or whatever, but even the redest-faced flag-shagger now knows it was a vote to be much poorer country, to lose influence and become a rule taker, not a rule maker. The only benefits were for the charlatans that sold the idea, and, of course, Vladimir Putin. 

Ah yes. Can't beat a good dose of arrogant sarcasm driven by ignorance and bile. Good job!

[manxman1980]

@Freggyragh

I spent years working for a company who did engineering work on these steel plants.  

Even before the referendum these sites were struggling to remain competitive in the global market.  There were constant threats of closure, they suffered from a chronic lack of investment compared to other facilities in the EU and the new plants in China.

The death of UK Steel was probably on the cards since the closure of the coal mines and of many UK shipyards and other heavy industry.

Leaving the EU has not helped of course but the industry had many, many deep seated issues before then.

I would have to search for the stories but I am pretty sure that pre-Brexit the UK Government was claiming it could not put money into UK steel as that would go against EU rules.  Pretty sure they have offered anything significant post Brexit either.

 

It is terribly sad for those communities affected.

[The Voice of Reason]

1 hour ago, Freggyragh said:

I'm appalled by this attitude that thousands of people losing their livelihoods and Britain losing its steel industry was somehow inevitable. It was not. Choosing to be treated as a third country and therefore subject to EU carbon taxes was A CHOICE. I know people based their choices on a range of dumb notions and feelings from xenophobia, trusting Boris Johnson in the NHS, nostalgia for tungsten lightbulbs, navy blue passports or bendy bananas, or whatever, but even the redest-faced flag-shagger now knows it was a vote to be much poorer country, to lose influence and become a rule taker, not a rule maker. 

The CHOICE in the vote was to be treated as an independent sovereign nation which the majority opted for.

You can accuse people who voted to leave  of being xenophobic flag shaggers ( lovely language by the way )or dumb etc as much as you like. But that is not  the reality 

The people of the UK who voted to leave don’t hate the rest of the EU. And are happy to work with the EU on areas of mutual benefit, as they are with countries around the world.

[manxman1980]

1 minute ago, The Voice of Reason said:

The people of the UK who voted to leave don’t hate the rest of the EU. And are happy to work with the EU on areas of mutual benefit, as they are with countries around the world.

Are you sure about that?  There seems to be plenty of hate towards the EU still.  Generally,  based on ideas that were proven false a long time ago and often with their roots in the "reporting" of one Boris Johnson.

[The Voice of Reason]

6 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

Are you sure about that?  There seems to be plenty of hate towards the EU still.  Generally,  based on ideas that were proven false a long time ago and often with their roots in the "reporting" of one Boris Johnson.

Yes I’m sure. People don’t hate the EU just glad to be out of it. And as such have no reason to hate it.

The populace of the remaining twenty seven countries may take a different view though.

[P.K.]

2 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Yes I’m sure. People don’t hate the EU just glad to be out of it. And as such have no reason to hate it.

The populace of the remaining twenty seven countries may take a different view though.

Personally I think it's right that brexiteers should be taken to task for deliberately diminishing our nation.

But equally I recognise that their desperate attempts to keep their brexit fantasy alive is driven mostly by the fact that no-one likes to be taken for a mug.

James O'Brien thinks we should feel sorry for them left as they are with the much hackneyed "sovereignty" as the only curtain they have left to hide behind. Naturally the immutable fact that "sovereignty" was never an issue for over forty years of membership in which the UK thrived has to be quietly forgotten to keep the charade rolling on into ever more uncharted waters. Like the customs checks on fresh food imports from the EU which the UK government have delayed for the fifth time due to the damage they know it would cause.

Brexit - the gift etc...

[woolley]

14 minutes ago, P.K. said:

But equally I recognise that their desperate attempts to keep their brexit fantasy alive is driven mostly by the fact that no-one likes to be taken for a mug.

Genuinely couldn't be more wrong. Nothing desperate here.

[Freggyragh]

Don't forget, most of the EU wanted to keep out cheap Chinese & Russian coal-produced steel when it was being dumped on the world market during the steel glut that became acute from 2015.

However, whilst Trump was slapping 25% on steel imports, the UK as a rule maker prevented Europe from raising the steel tariff above 9%. (You'll remember the tories under Cameron were very keen on doing business with the CCP). One result of the failure to protect the steel industry was that British Steel couldn't make any money to upgrade its plant, went bust, and the Chinese Jingye Group took it over in March 2022.

The larger steel operations at Port Talbot had already been sold to Tata back in 2007. 

The Jingye Group only paid £24M for British Steel, made a £140M loss in its first year,  but is chasing £300M in subsidies from the UK Gov to upgrade the Scunthorpe plant to EAF (that would make their products easier to export to the EU). 

So, the UK's steel industry is in the hands of Indian and Chinese companies, and if it is to survive, based as it is in a third country, those companies will need eye-watering investment from the UK. 

 

Edited January 22 by Freggyragh

[P.K.]

4 hours ago, woolley said:

Genuinely couldn't be more wrong. Nothing desperate here.

Mug...

[Garteth T]

I think I posted this before in a much longer form but the problem with Brexit was that the options were to vote to stay with the existing system or simply vote to leave. There vote did not say leave and replace with X or leave and replace with Y etc.

Now the electorate who voted leave may argue they new what they were voting for as a replacement, but unless they were voting for complete uncertainty they could not have been. At best they were voting what they believed or hoped might be introduced as the replacement.

I did not have a vote but I would have voted remain simply because I understood what that meant. I would effectively have been voting for the status quo, whether or not I thought it was great or not. To vote leave I would have been voting for change without any concrete idea of what that change would actually be. It might have been better, it might have been worse but it was not set out and agreed.

That hole has not been filled because as far as I can see nobody has yet put to the people what they want in place now the UK has left the EU and until there is a consensus, or at least a majority, the arguments in respect of what should be put in place post Brexit will continue, as will this thread.

Brexit is done and dusted, the UK left the EU.  However, the arrangements etc post Brexit will be argued over for decades. 

 

[manxman1980]

13 hours ago, Freggyragh said:

Don't forget, most of the EU wanted to keep out cheap Chinese & Russian coal-produced steel when it was being dumped on the world market during the steel glut that became acute from 2015.

However, whilst Trump was slapping 25% on steel imports, the UK as a rule maker prevented Europe from raising the steel tariff above 9%. (You'll remember the tories under Cameron were very keen on doing business with the CCP). One result of the failure to protect the steel industry was that British Steel couldn't make any money to upgrade its plant, went bust, and the Chinese Jingye Group took it over in March 2022.

The larger steel operations at Port Talbot had already been sold to Tata back in 2007. 

The Jingye Group only paid £24M for British Steel, made a £140M loss in its first year,  but is chasing £300M in subsidies from the UK Gov to upgrade the Scunthorpe plant to EAF (that would make their products easier to export to the EU). 

So, the UK's steel industry is in the hands of Indian and Chinese companies, and if it is to survive, based as it is in a third country, those companies will need eye-watering investment from the UK. 

 

Isn't that telling?  How could the UK have blocked the all powerful EU from doing this?  Any answer @The Voice of Reason @woolley

And for those of you who won't bother to look it up;

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/feb/10/david-cameron-accused-failing-uk-steel-industry-blocking-eu-lesser-duty-proposal 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/01/steel-crisis-uk-accused-blocking-eu-attempts-regulate-chinese-dumping 

 

It does rather reinforce my point that UK Steel was already in trouble pre-Brexit thanks to a lack of investment and Conservative Government policy.  

 

[The Voice of Reason]

1 hour ago, manxman1980 said:

Isn't that telling?  How could the UK have blocked the all powerful EU from doing this?  Any answer @The Voice of Reason @woolley

 

It’s just yet another example of how inherently dysfunctional the EU is ( irrespective of who is blocking who)

[manxman1980]

3 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

It’s just yet another example of how inherently dysfunctional the EU is ( irrespective of who is blocking who)

Alternatively it proves that the UK could, when it wanted, decide to block what other members wanted to do.  

[The Voice of Reason]

2 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

Alternatively it proves that the UK could, when it wanted, decide to block what other members wanted to do.  

And of course vice versa. 

[P.K.]

6 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

And of course vice versa. 

Depending entirely on what it is as you well know...