The Voice of Reason Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 54 minutes ago, P.K. said: So deny that racists voted for brexit. The floor is yours... Sure maybe some racists voted for Brexit, as maybe some paedophiles voted “ Remain”. Not sure what your point is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 22 hours ago, manxman1980 said: It wasn't me who brought up the colour of passports as a brexit benefit. That was @The Voice of Reason. I simply responded to it. Yes, but nobody had claimed it as a benefit. It was just Remainers taking the mickey. "Oohhh look. You've got your blue passports." That's all it ever was. I also disagree that protection for regionally produced goods is trivial. If place of origin is so trivial why does it matter what it says on a passport? Or for that matter why does nationality matter? So long as the country of origin is known, and it will be, it isn't a problem. The distillers association appear to disagree with you, so that should carry some weight? Why does nationality matter? What kind of crass stupidity is that? You sound like a trendy left liberal teacher filling the kids' heads with John Lennon type nonsense about a world at one at the taxpayers' expense. You're living in cloud cuckoo land if you think that Parliament went rogue. That Parliament sought to uphold the rule of law. What came next was the Rogue Parliament where Johnson et Al illegally prorogued Parliament, lied to the Monarch and ended up taking the whole country for a ride whilst lining their own pockets. That they wanted to remain in the EU is the bottom line and employed all kinds of shenanigans spurred on by Bercow to that end. I support the actions taken by the Brexiteers in Parliament because in extremis the end justified the means, and it had to be done to get us out. If the likes of Soubry had their way, the boil would never have been lanced and we'd still be in the EU. Again though you fundamentally demonstrate the flawed belief that there was an agreement about what leaving the EU looked like. Everyone knew it meant leave but did that mean a Canada Plus model? A Canadae Plus Plus? A Danish model? A "hard" Brexit ? Strangely the concept of a hard Brexit was never mentioned until after the referendum so you can hardly argue people voted for it. Parliament was plunged into chaos because no one knew how the UK was meant to leave the EU. There was no plan which led to everyone arguing about what it meant and contradicting each other. I think you mean a Norway model, but again the refuseniks were fighting their rearguard action for years. In spite of the referendum result, they didn't want any form of Brexit unless it was Brino (in name only, in the single market, in the customs union with all that it would entail - 4 freedoms etc.). The electorate told them what they thought of that in the 2019 election in no uncertain terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 7 hours ago, P.K. said: Personally I think comparisons prior to 2015 are a complete waste of time. Because prior to that there was simply no brexit vote, no pandemic encircling the globe and no Russian tanks rolling West intent on conquest! Some rather large shocks to the monetary system there you could rightly say. So there was also no fantasy. Just the figures... Of course you do, because it's comparing the performance prior to 2015 with the the performance since that demolishes the point you thought you were scoring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 2 hours ago, quilp said: Boring to the end... Oh he's not finished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 2 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said: Sure maybe some racists voted for Brexit, as maybe some paedophiles voted “ Remain”. Not sure what your point is. FFS if you are going down that route then paedophiles also voted leave, as did murderers and a whole host of other criminals that had a right to vote. Paedophiles et al probably voted whichever way they wanted. Almost certainly though every member of the BNP, National Front or any other racist voted leave. Not everyone who voted leave is a racist though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 2 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said: Sure maybe some racists voted for Brexit, as maybe some paedophiles voted “ Remain”. Not sure what your point is. You're the one complaining! So you tell me...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 @woolley so nation or region of origin for produce doesn't matter but is somehow all important for a person? Does a quintessentially British product not deserve protection from being copied and sold as if it was actually made in Britain? I assume you have seen that supermarkets are busy making up fake farms to convince consumers that the produce is fresh and local? Companies will try all sorts to sell cheap crap at premium prices. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 2 hours ago, woolley said: Of course you do, because it's comparing the performance prior to 2015 with the the performance since that demolishes the point you thought you were scoring. BS. I told you why pre-2015 was no longer relevant. Go ahead, make a case for why it matters to the world we live in now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 1 hour ago, P.K. said: You're the one complaining! So you tell me...? Sorry I am the one complaining …….about what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 1 hour ago, manxman1980 said: Almost certainly though every member of the BNP, National Front or any other racist voted leave. Not everyone who voted leave is a racist though. OK let’s try and get this put to bed. The majority in favour of Brexit was 1,270,000 ( to the nearest thousand) The racist party with the most members, the EDL was estimated to have a membership of 25,000 to 30,000 in 2013, (the most recent estimate to the date of the referendum I could find) The second largest was the BNP with an estimated membership of 500 in 2015. Membership numbers for the NF are insignificant. So say you somehow are allowed take those holding such memberships out of the equation this reduces the majority of those voting for Brexit, to say 1,240,000. Ah ha, you say well what about those racists that don’t belong to those groups. Well then you are into thought policing territory. You may as well pluck a figure for the percentage of the population you happen to deem racist, sufficient to overturn the majority, out of the air to support your argument that racists were responsible for Brexit. Racism was not responsible for Brexit. A desire for sovereignty was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 5 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: OK let’s try and get this put to bed. The majority in favour of Brexit was 1,270,000 ( to the nearest thousand) The racist party with the most members, the EDL was estimated to have a membership of 25,000 to 30,000 in 2013, (the most recent estimate to the date of the referendum I could find) The second largest was the BNP with an estimated membership of 500 in 2015. Membership numbers for the NF are insignificant. So say you somehow are allowed take those holding such memberships out of the equation this reduces the majority of those voting for Brexit, to say 1,240,000. Ah ha, you say well what about those racists that don’t belong to those groups. Well then you are into thought policing territory. You may as well pluck a figure for the percentage of the population you happen to deem racist, sufficient to overturn the majority, out of the air to support your argument that racists were responsible for Brexit. Racism was not responsible for Brexit. A desire for sovereignty was. You miss the point... Regardless of the numbers involved the racists would vote for Brexit. Its indisputable as there is no reason why they would vote remain. I dont think I have ever said that racists swayed the vote. Just that racists would have voted leave to get rid of "Johnny Foreigner" and those pesky immigrants who came to the UK and stole our jobs and lived off benefits. I totally understand that non-racists also voted leave for their own reasons. Some did it because they believe the UK will be better out of the EU. Some did it as a protest vote against Cameron (never expecting to actually leave the EU). But the racists definitely voted leave and that is that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 2 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said: Sorry I am the one complaining …….about what? @The Voice of Reason This is the very last time I will respond to your piss-poor trolling. 7 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said: By the way have you ever thought how of how offensive it is labelling Brexiteers “racists”.? It’s a slur you have repeated often. Fortunately @manxman1980 told it like it is and saved me the bother... Thanks for that. Watched Peston this PM (recorded) and I had to laugh. Labour have targeted 150 tory seats they have to win to get a working majority. So they polled the voters in the 150 seats to find that only 11% of the tory voters there will switch to Labour in the next election. However 21% will switch to the Reform UK party which was previously the Brexit Party and is led by the appalling Richard Tice and Nigel Farage is in there somewhere. However that 21% will swing back to the tories if get this: Sunak "fixes immigration"...! Now that's really really funny and shows in stark relief what's important to brexiteers! Mind you personally I didn't know "immigration" was broken...? Maybe it's a euphemism for something else... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 P.K., you constantly conflate 'racist' with 'anti-immigration' — but in parts of England that have seen a lot of immigration and very little spending on infrastructure, housing and public services, immigration is understandably seen as undesirable — and statistics on the beneficial effect of immigration are just not obvious to people who can no longer see a dentist. Tice and Farage are obviously charlatans, but they are exploiting feelings born out of experience. Of course, it is stupid to hate the people moving to your town who are often coming to provide the services you lack, but I think it is a more general ignorance than pure racism that is to blame. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Colombe Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 (edited) 11 hours ago, manxman1980 said: You miss the point... I dont think I have ever said that racists swayed the vote. Just that racists would have voted leave to get rid of "Johnny Foreigner" and those pesky immigrants who came to the UK and stole our jobs and lived off benefits. But the racists definitely voted leave and that is that. Well I’m not sure what this extended conversation has all been about then! I am inclined to agree that these unsavoury characters were more likely to vote Leave but if their votes didn’t affect the overall result,apart from noting they are not nice people (which we already know)there is nothing to complain about or make an issue of. Edited January 26 by The Voice of Reason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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