P.K. Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 16 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said: You surely can’t argue that this is not a loss of sovereignty. But no, of course Brexit was all about English people being racist wasn’t it? Fixed! Yes it was. You're finally getting to the nub of the issue. Dear me but it took long enough... I have a lot of sympathy for European farmers. Especially the Spanish who used to contribute 3% to the national GDP compared to the UK's 0.7%. They have been experiencing droughts that are getting worse with no real solution in sight. The more I look into issues like agriculture the more I start to side with the EU approach. They banned a certain insecticide that was lethal to bees. The UK kept exempting themselves from it year on year. The only reason I can see for the UK exemption is votes. We now have rivers awash with sewage. Which eventually finds itself on our beaches etc etc Frankly we seem to have lost a lot more in leaving than was immediately obvious... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 @P.K. siding with the EU approach. Whatever next? 🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 6 minutes ago, P.K. said: We now have rivers awash with sewage. The EU doesn't have this, of course....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 @manxman1980 So long as you like having legislation imposed from outside then, yeah, it's funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 12 minutes ago, woolley said: The EU doesn't have this, of course....... Their rivers are on an entirely different league to the UK. It's called topography you know... I recall being in Germany and a friend explaining why they called it "The magical River Rhine". Because if you dropped an undeveloped camera film in the river on one side of a bridge if you fished it out on the other side it was magically developed! Made me laugh even though chemicals in the river were clearly a problem! My favourite Barbel river that I used to fish year on year, the lovely river Wye, has been essentially destroyed since we left the EU. I won't be going back. Frankly, after 13 years of the worst government in my memory and probably forever, I would trust the EU to be better for the UK than our totally useless, self-important, self-centred MP's currently running the country (into the ground...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 35 minutes ago, woolley said: @manxman1980 So long as you like having legislation imposed from outside then, yeah, it's funny. You just compared the EU (basically a group of countries that come together on a voluntary basis and, as we know, the right to leave) with Imperial Colonisation. Yea, the two are totally the same! FFS. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 5 hours ago, P.K. said: Frankly, after 13 years of the worst government in my memory and probably forever, I would trust the EU to be better for the UK than our totally useless, self-important, self-centred MP's currently running the country (into the ground...) The very idea that you would rather a third party unelected organisation legislate for the UK than one chosen by the electorate ( for better or for worse) sends shivers down my spine. Theres a Eurostar in the morning! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 8 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: Theres a Eurostar in the morning! Good joke! No freedom of movement anymore, or have you forgotten? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 The EU has done with MERCOSUR exactly what the UK has done with brexit & the deals with Australia, Canada & New Zealand — kill off its own agriculture sector. Why? Because its an easier win on the way to net zero than tackling more powerful industries. Of course it means that Europeans will be consuming cheap hormone enhanced feed-lot beef & dairy shipped from the other side of the world in refigerated containers rather than local pasture raised product from their own continent — but it won't show up on the EU's own carbon spreadsheets. I can't see that brexit has much bearing on this — the UK & EU are equally shortsighted and disingenuous when it comes to food policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 And, as if to prove my point: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/dover-tractor-demo-protest-b2493825.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 On 2/9/2024 at 11:52 PM, Freggyragh said: The EU has done with MERCOSUR exactly what the UK has done with brexit & the deals with Australia, Canada & New Zealand — kill off its own agriculture sector. Why? Because its an easier win on the way to net zero than tackling more powerful industries. The negotiations with Australia and New Zealand were based on a lethal combination of UK desperation for any kind of trade deal plus sheer stupidity. The last I remember of the Canada talks was that they had failed. Anyway, the whole sorry situation is a great deal more nuanced than the rabidly anti-EU Mail, Express, Sun and Telegraph would have their gullible tory readers believe... The farmers are protesting in Germany about their government's plans to cut subsidies. Some farmers losing as much as €10,000 per annum. Germany's dependency on Russian energy was a bad strategic mistake. Spanish farmers have been suffering from serious drought. Their government is formulating policy on how much water they can take from the rivers for irrigation to try and manage the situation. Global warming strikes again! Farmers in France are protesting about EU rules on clearing up their act on things like pesticides and so forth, the way their own government over-complicates their translation of EU legislation and cheaper foreign imports. Plus the French seem to revel in the way they can protest which is banned in countries like the UK. Blockading their roads seems to be a favourite... The UK farmers are protesting about cheap post Brexit imports undercutting their produce. Hence the delays they imposed on Dover. Andrew Gibson, who helped organise the Dover protest with his brother Jeff, said: “We’ve had support from all round the country. There will be other groups like us and they will make their presence felt – around the docks, around supermarket distribution centres.” The protest on Friday afternoon was spontaneous – it had only been organised hours earlier, and the response so far has been “brilliant”, Gibson said. Gibson cited tariff-free wheat from Ukraine and cheap lamb from New Zealand among the reasons for farmers protesting. His brother Jeff told Radio 4’s Today programme: “Brexit has made things more difficult. Exporting things from the UK is much more difficult, and importing into the UK doesn’t seem to have changed.” https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/feb/10/uk-farmers-vow-to-mount-more-blockades-over-cheap-post-brexit-imports-and-supermarket-prices Personally I think the farmers should not be complaining. A large majority of them voted for Brexit and they've got what they voted for - black passports and Third Country trading status. Dropping out of the best deal in the best trading bloc on the planet not only reduced the UK's international standing but also created a desperation for trade deals. Any deals would do... Step forward the appallingly untalented Liz Truss who 81,326 Conservative Party Members were later to vote into the post of Prime Minister ahead of Rishi Sunak. I wonder why... She negotiated trade deals with both Australia and New Zealand. Shortly after when pressed she had to admit on Andrew Marr that both deals were "of negative benefit" to the UK. Thanks to the Trade Secretary Australian and New Zealand produce is now undercutting the locally grown stuff in a supermarket near you... You would expect that farmers of all people would know the irony in the saying "the grass is always greener" but apparently not... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) The EU's deal with Mercosur is bad for the EU's farmers, although probably not as bad as Great Britain's deals with Australia and New Zealand are for British farmers. The biggest losers might be the Irish (North & South), who now face fierce competition for their exports to Great Britain (half their beef and dairy output is currently exported to Britain) from Australia and New Zealand, whilst facing competition in their own market and the rest of the EU from Mercosur. There is a saying in agriculture that goes 'up corn, down horn' — when arable is good, beef is bad and vice versa. On brexit, nearly three quarters of British farmers say they regret it, both arable and beef. Vegetable, fruit and pig farmers have suffered more though, as Britain now has industry threatening shortages of vegetable & fruit pickers and pig slaughterers. Those farmers are now 80% regrexiters, like the cheese producers and fishermen. Edited February 12 by Freggyragh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) The EU - Mercosur deal is yet to be signed off. Macron and Varadkar have both stated they will not sign it until there are controls on hygiene standards and so forth so the Mercosur products are on a par with those produced by EU farmers, which is one of the reasons for the current protests. That's the same beef (sorry) that the UK farmers have with New Zealand and Australian produce. But, of course, it's too late to do anything about it... Brexit - the gift etc. Edited February 12 by P.K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 Brazil alone uses 150 pesticides banned in the EU, and can simply clear forest to expand production as they see fit. Even if deforestation and pesticide clauses are introduced to the deal, Irish and French agriculture is never going to compete on price with Brazil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 On 2/9/2024 at 9:19 PM, manxman1980 said: Good joke! No freedom of movement anymore, or have you forgotten? You can still travel across the Channel, you know. Eurostars do still depart regularly in both directions. If you are of a mind to, you can even take up residence and work in the country of your choice. OK, it isn't all treated as one territory anymore. That was the whole point. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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