woolley Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 Frankly, there are big geopolitical shifts happening in the world, and quickly. The 21st century is a time of decline for the West in general, and it has to be recognised that the balance of power has taken a marked shift towards Asia. We've all become too complacent, having taught generations of our children that doing, making and generally getting your hands dirty are of lower status than thinking, pontificating and walking around with a clip board. Too many readily believed the globalisation gurus when they said that only the low tech repetitive work would be exported to China, and the high tech, high value work would remain. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/germany-days-industrial-superpower-coming-050013163.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAI618CcDQr8OKF4_As38DMGARl9N-1wBo5r6QhfVN7A29YmmzlK5Mw1YT0Hg80i8V03gLvR7-POh4z3_y3FvHaeCb2hZKfMEg6i8-Px5hkluzc8yhx316Veerxo36b0i_WUGBGJ83e-YoHHhcda4mSwZtTtJgiJLfa8wpRk_11wm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 1 hour ago, woolley said: You can still travel across the Channel, you know. Eurostars do still depart regularly in both directions. If you are of a mind to, you can even take up residence and work in the country of your choice. OK, it isn't all treated as one territory anymore. That was the whole point. And you can even still get on a plane to fly between the UK and European destinations! Who’d have thought that after Brexit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said: And you can even still get on a plane to fly between the UK and European destinations! Who’d have thought that after Brexit? The point that you and @woolley are missing is that whilst it is, of course, still possible to travel relatively easily (if you dont mind long queues) to the EU, it is no longer so easy to move to an EU state to live or work. This little side spat stemmed, don't forget, from your suggest that "there is a eurostar in the morning". The implication being it is as easy as moving from the Isle of Man to the UK. The very fact that I seemingly have to spell this out is frustrating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) 40 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: The point that you and @woolley are missing is that whilst it is, of course, still possible to travel relatively easily (if you dont mind long queues) to the EU, it is no longer so easy to move to an EU state to live or work. This little side spat stemmed, don't forget, from your suggest that "there is a eurostar in the morning". The implication being it is as easy as moving from the Isle of Man to the UK. The very fact that I seemingly have to spell this out is frustrating. But the thing I think you forget is that following Brexit, we have a new relationship with the EU. And that brings changes, things aren’t the same. It’s also possible to travel relatively easily, say to the United States but equally not so easy to live or work there. That’s been the case for a very long time. The very fact that I have to spell this out is frustrating. I am not sure what you expected. The UK voted to leave the EU and you thought everything would remain the same? Edited February 12 by The Voice of Reason Addition of last paragraph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 @The Voice of Reason you are an idiot. I knew that Brexit would mean the loss of freedom of movement. It was afterall a big part of the racists demands. I did expect things to change and they have done. For the worse. My choice was to remain but you know that already. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 4 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said: And you can even still get on a plane to fly between the UK and European destinations! Who’d have thought that after Brexit? As part of "Project Fear", they did tell us that this wouldn't happen and that UK registered aircraft would not be allowed to overfly EU airspace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 1 hour ago, manxman1980 said: @The Voice of Reason you are an idiot. I knew that Brexit would mean the loss of freedom of movement. It was afterall a big part of the racists demands. I did expect things to change and they have done. For the worse. My choice was to remain but you know that already. People who don't agree with you are not necessarily idiots or racists. This is a conceit of many on the pro-EU side whose understanding of the issues is often tenuous. Your opinion is that things have got worse. They're not exactly a bowl of cherries in the EU either. You see, self-determination is worth more to some of us than whatever benefits of trade you care to list from EU membership. Why we can't have both, like other trading blocs in the world seem to manage (without a parliament, a currency, a flag, an anthem, a foreign policy, supreme laws over members etc.), is another question. An interesting piece of work with a good debate in the comments section. Demonstrably, none of these people are idiots whatever their views: https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2015/11/26/why-britain-really-joined-the-eec-and-why-it-had-nothing-to-do-with-helping-our-economy/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 8 hours ago, woolley said: An interesting piece of work with a good debate in the comments section. Demonstrably, none of these people are idiots whatever their views: https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2015/11/26/why-britain-really-joined-the-eec-and-why-it-had-nothing-to-do-with-helping-our-economy/ An opinion piece by the founder of UKIP. Nuff said... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 @quilp I'm not sure what's so funny about my post above...? Above is the founder of UKIP, Alan Sked, on the stump. Here he is sharing a platform with someone he greatly admires who he asked to come along and support his endeavours. A Mr Enoch Powell no less... @woolley As brexit more and more looks like a complete and utter clusterfuck you need all the help you can muster to try and keep the fantasy alive. Very understandable. But clearly you need to be a lot more circumspect in your choices of those you promote to puff it up. As I have said previously. Racism played a larger part in the brexit vote than most are prepared to admit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 12 hours ago, woolley said: People who don't agree with you are not necessarily idiots or racists. This is a conceit of many on the pro-EU side whose understanding of the issues is often tenuous. My assertion is that @The Voice of Reason is an idiot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 17 hours ago, manxman1980 said: The point that you and @woolley are missing is that whilst it is, of course, still possible to travel relatively easily (if you dont mind long queues) to the EU, it is no longer so easy to move to an EU state to live or work. This little side spat stemmed, don't forget, from your suggest that "there is a eurostar in the morning". The implication being it is as easy as moving from the Isle of Man to the UK. The very fact that I seemingly have to spell this out is frustrating. Not missing anything. It's no longer so easy, but you can still do it if you so wish. It is extremely frustrating to have to spell out that not everybody sees a treaty by treaty slide to a pan-continental superstate as a desirable development. I appreciate that there is an alternative view, but it doesn't make people who disagree with you idiots or racist. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 1 hour ago, P.K. said: @quilp I'm not sure what's so funny about my post above...? Above is the founder of UKIP, Alan Sked, on the stump. Here he is sharing a platform with someone he greatly admires who he asked to come along and support his endeavours. A Mr Enoch Powell no less... @woolley As brexit more and more looks like a complete and utter clusterfuck you need all the help you can muster to try and keep the fantasy alive. Very understandable. But clearly you need to be a lot more circumspect in your choices of those you promote to puff it up. As I have said previously. Racism played a larger part in the brexit vote than most are prepared to admit... People do not want their laws enacted on the continent. There is no reason at all why we cannot have open trade without creeping hegemony. Other trading blocs manage it. There are many points made in the piece (and the comments leading on) that I linked, and they are not based on racism. The racist card is an easy one to play as you lose the argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 1 hour ago, manxman1980 said: My assertion is that @The Voice of Reason is an idiot. Hardly a persuasive stance from somebody who was unaware that EU Primary Law as passed is immediately binding in all member states, cannot be amended by them and is supreme over domestic legislation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 19 minutes ago, woolley said: Hardly a persuasive stance from somebody who was unaware that EU Primary Law as passed is immediately binding in all member states, cannot be amended by them and is supreme over domestic legislation. That Primary Law is agreed by all member states though... they all have democratically elected MEP's who to vote on issues in the EU Parliament. The UK, of course, largely elected MEP's who attend the minimum number of sessions whilst claiming their pay and benefits and failing to really represent the UK. Particularly Nigel Farage who only ever seemed to turn up to be the clown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 1 hour ago, woolley said: People do not want their laws enacted on the continent. There is no reason at all why we cannot have open trade without creeping hegemony. Other trading blocs manage it. There are many points made in the piece (and the comments leading on) that I linked, and they are not based on racism. The racist card is an easy one to play as you lose the argument. Hear hear 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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