P.K. Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 1 hour ago, woolley said: People do not want their laws enacted on the continent. There is no reason at all why we cannot have open trade without creeping hegemony. Other trading blocs manage it. There are many points made in the piece (and the comments leading on) that I linked, and they are not based on racism. The racist card is an easy one to play as you lose the argument. An admirer of Enoch Powell ffs! Put on the teflon shoulders as you like you still made a very bad choice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 2 hours ago, woolley said: People do not want their laws enacted on the continent. There is no reason at all why we cannot have open trade without creeping hegemony. Other trading blocs manage it. There are many points made in the piece (and the comments leading on) that I linked, and they are not based on racism. The racist card is an easy one to play as you lose the argument. Why does the blog you linked to carry the following disclaimer? "This post represents the views of the author and not those of the BrexitVote blog, nor the LSE. Alan Sked is a Professor of International History at the LSE." It appears that the LSE are not to keen to back a blog post by of of their own Professors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 (edited) I don’t know why you find that so unusual. If I express a view on here, I would be doing it in my personal capacity. I wouldn’t expect any employer of mine to “ back” those views. Such disclaimers are common. Nothing sinister in that. Anyway, moving on:- “Ukip was formed in 1993, by a Eurosceptic academic named Alan Sked, with the aim of securing the UK’s withdrawal from the European Union, drawing members from the Anti-Federalist League – a party set up in 1991 to fight the Maastricht Treaty. It stood candidates at the 1997 election, but was overshadowed by James Goldsmith’s Referendum Party…… Mr Sked resigned from the leadership soon afterwards, in protest at Ukip attracting members who “are racist and have been infected by the far-right” and warning it was ‘doomed”.” Source : The Independent Edited February 13 by The Voice of Reason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 1 hour ago, manxman1980 said: That Primary Law is agreed by all member states though... they all have democratically elected MEP's who to vote on issues in the EU Parliament. The UK, of course, largely elected MEP's who attend the minimum number of sessions whilst claiming their pay and benefits and failing to really represent the UK. Particularly Nigel Farage who only ever seemed to turn up to be the clown. There remains a glaring democratic deficit in the growth of QMV to further areas of policy, so even if all of your MEPs voted against a measure it could still be passed into EU law and be binding in your territory. This is important to those of us that believe we are better at running our own affairs than leaving it to outsiders. I appreciate that some of you don't care who runs our affairs. That's your prerogative. I won't call you an idiot for holding this view, but I don't think it's very smart. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/qualified-majority-voting-and-the-ordinary-legislative-procedure.html It's a very old debate, and it continues: https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/06/13/the-eu-has-the-tools-to-move-from-unanimity-to-qualified-majority-but-its-a-classic-catch- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 54 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: It appears that the LSE are not to keen to back a blog post by of of their own Professors. Quite a common form of disclaimer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 4 hours ago, woolley said: Hardly a persuasive stance from somebody who was unaware that EU Primary Law as passed is immediately binding in all member states, cannot be amended by them and is supreme over domestic legislation. The UK is a party to the Vienna Convention on the Law on Treaties, so all treaties and conventions once signed, ratified, or otherwise accepted are law, (eg.; the Good Friday Agreement, and the Trade and Cooperation Agreement with the EU). Hope that hasn't spoiled your night if you think leaving the single market gave you 'sovereignty'. You'll have to scrap all trade deals and international memberships if you want real 'sovereignty'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 20 hours ago, manxman1980 said: @The Voice of Reason you are an idiot. I knew that Brexit would mean the loss of freedom of movement. It was afterall a big part of the racists demands. I did expect things to change and they have done. For the worse. My choice was to remain but you know that already. There are those who accept they lost the argument, bad losers and sore losers. Yourself and Barney are the sorest of them all. ( “racist demands”, my arse) Get over it and embrace the new found freedom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 You've got that arse-about-face. He's lost freedom and won the argument, at least insofar as brexit is a festering turd. You won an advisory referendum with dodgy funding and without knowing what you were actually voting for. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Freggyragh said: You've got that arse-about-face. He's lost freedom and won the argument, at least insofar as brexit is a festering turd. You won an advisory referendum with dodgy funding and without knowing what you were actually voting for. Arguments ( “ advisory referendum “ etc) of yet another sore loser🙂 Edited February 13 by The Voice of Reason Addition of second and third words Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 5 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said: I don’t know why you find that so unusual. If I express a view on here, I would be doing it in my personal capacity. I wouldn’t expect any employer of mine to “ back” those views. Such disclaimers are common. Nothing sinister in that. Is Manxforums hosted by your employer? The blog is hosted on lse.org.uk now if I was posting on a blog/forum/website hosted by my employer it would not carry that disclaimer or anything like it. Why? Because they would have reviewed and approved the message before it was published. If I posted it anyway just including that disclaimer would not be sufficient to prevent them taking action against me if they did not like the contents. Including it in this manner appears to me to be unusual and as if LSE are attempting to distance themselves from the content. 5 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said: Mr Sked resigned from the leadership soon afterwards, in protest at Ukip attracting members who “are racist and have been infected by the far-right” and warning it was ‘doomed”.” So, you are saying that UKIP were/are racist? 5 hours ago, woolley said: Quite a common form of disclaimer. See above. Maybe it is an LSE policy but not something I routinely see anywhere else hence why it caught my eye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 3 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said: There are those who accept they lost the argument, bad losers and sore losers. Yourself and Barney are the sorest of them all. ( “racist demands”, my arse) Get over it and embrace the new found freedom. Get over yourself. I don't agree with the outcome, I don't agree with the way in which Brexit was implemented, and I don't see any benefits. What I have done is accepted the result and carried on making the best of my life. It frustrates me though that two businesses I have worked for since the referendum have been negatively impacted by Brexit. One saw massive increases in import costs and delays bringing materials into the UK for a major infrastructure project. That same business also had to incur additional costs of obtaining a sponsorship licence to deploy skilled workers from the EU in the UK. Up to that point they had been able to do so without incurring additional costs. Those skilled workers were being used to train and mentor UK workers to improve the talent pool there. That was dramatically curtailed as a result of Brexit. The second business has also seen its supply chains impacted. The loss of EU funding for UK infrastructure projects has also seen its market shrink in size. Despite what you will tell me the UK Government has simply not matched the funding and as a result projects have been shelved. Similarly that business has also had to pay for sponsorship licences and visas in order to continue employing some people. Once again in skills shortage areas. Neither of those businesses have seen any brexit benefits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 (edited) 17 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: 9 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: What I have done is accepted the result and carried on making the best of my life. Well you haven’t have you given the months, if not years, you have been on here moaning about Brexit ( racist etc)? Edited February 13 by The Voice of Reason Racist bit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 6 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: Well you haven’t have you given the months, if not years, you have been on here moaning about Brexit ( racist etc)? Answer my question about UKIP please? You cited that article.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 3 hours ago, Freggyragh said: The UK is a party to the Vienna Convention on the Law on Treaties, so all treaties and conventions once signed, ratified, or otherwise accepted are law, (eg.; the Good Friday Agreement, and the Trade and Cooperation Agreement with the EU). Hope that hasn't spoiled your night if you think leaving the single market gave you 'sovereignty'. You'll have to scrap all trade deals and international memberships if you want real 'sovereignty'. It's made my night that you can't work out the difference between the UK negotiating treaties and conventions on its own behalf and being subject to law enacted over its head by an outside body. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 13 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: Answer my question about UKIP please? You cited that article.. OK bit of a distraction which is probably why you are asking. Sked resigned because he thought the party was attracting the wrong sort of people per the article. Now you say you have accepted the Brexit result. Well you can’t do any other unless you have any evidence that it was rigged or something . I understand it’s not the result you wanted and you had your own good reasons for that but it wasn’t the majority view. So let’s put all that behind us and work together in this new environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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