Freggyragh Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 11 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said: You may not be aware but the UK suffered a number of recessions whilst a member of the EU/EEC In the early eighties and nineties,for example, not forgetting the Great Recession of 2008. I am well aware. I remember that when building was on its uppers in the UK British builders had the option to go and work in Germany, which they did in droves. Thanks to brexit that option has gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 4 hours ago, Non-Believer said: Britain now lags behind even the EU laggards, some 20% behind the German standard quoted. Wasn't one of the Brexit tenets that Britain would be able to surge ahead once unfettered by EU regulations and red tape? Why do you compare the "stagnant state" of the EU economy to Britain when Britain is no longer part of it and should be doing far better than the EU if the promises made had any grounds at all? Because that's what you are doing in a thread about Brexit, I suppose. Trade was not the driver of Brexit in any event. It was about self-determination. What is this 20% you are quoting without context? Could you elucidate, please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 25 minutes ago, Freggyragh said: Woolley will no doubt say I'm being inconsistent here, but the idea that either budgeting for strategic investment in railways, or purchasing ppe stock for hospitals needs supervision from Brussels bureaucrats is ludicrous. And of course, that was never the case. Blaming the mistakes of bad national government on Brussels was one of the great lies of brexit. The EU doesn't control national budgets like that. The UK votes for morons, toffs and spivs — that's something that brexit hasn't changed. The lies, the loss of FoM, the loss of access to the SM, the shoddy rushed through trade deals and the additional costs for ordinary people — that's why I say brexit is a turd, which it is. Not the state of the HS2 project. I'm also not going to blame the recession entirely on brexit. I'm an anonymous internet poster — I don't need to overegg anything, and if there were any benefits to brexit I'd be happy. Fact is, where in a fuel price crisis. We've got a decade of hard times ahead if us, and brexit will make it worse, but it's not responsible for all tory incompetence and corruption. You're being inconsistent here........ But as I've said, the fact that the UK elects morons is not a case for outsourcing legislation and decisions over large swathes of policy to an outside body. That's the starting point. Thank you for not blaming the recession entirely on Brexit. It's a global thing in the 2020s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 6 hours ago, Freggyragh said: Woolley will no doubt say I'm being inconsistent here, but the idea that either budgeting for strategic investment in railways, or purchasing ppe stock for hospitals needs supervision from Brussels bureaucrats is ludicrous. And of course, that was never the case. Blaming the mistakes of bad national government on Brussels was one of the great lies of brexit. The EU doesn't control national budgets like that. The UK votes for morons, toffs and spivs — that's something that brexit hasn't changed.The lies, the loss of FoM, the loss of access to the SM, the shoddy rushed through trade deals and the additional costs for ordinary people — that's why I say brexit is a turd, which it is. Not the state of the HS2 project. We drifted onto HS2 when discussing the loss of EU funding for projects in the UK and the fact that such investment has not been replaced by the UK Government. That EU funding was vital to some areas and helped rebuild Liverpool and Manchester. Tory Governments are not renowned for effectively investing in regions which typically don't vote Tory. HS2 is an example of additional costs being forced on the project to appease Tory voters. 6 hours ago, Freggyragh said: I'm also not going to blame the recession entirely on brexit. I'm an anonymous internet poster — I don't need to overegg anything, and if there were any benefits to brexit I'd be happy. Fact is, where in a fuel price crisis. We've got a decade of hard times ahead if us, and brexit will make it worse, but it's not responsible for all tory incompetence and corruption. I agree. Brexit is not solely responsible for the recession it does have the potential to make it worse and longer due to the leaving the single market and the bad trade deals that have replaced it. The thing is that for two people on here at least sovereignty trumps everything. I suspect those two posters are in a decent financial position and of an age where the long term economic impact of brexit won't affect them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 6 hours ago, woolley said: Thank you for not blaming the recession entirely on Brexit. It's a global thing in the 2020s. Apart from the US which is has a strong and growing economy. So let's not over egg the global recession. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 2 hours ago, manxman1980 said: I agree. Brexit is not solely responsible for the recession it does have the potential to make it worse and longer due to the leaving the single market and the bad trade deals that have replaced it. The thing is that for two people on here at least sovereignty trumps everything. I suspect those two posters are in a decent financial position and of an age where the long term economic impact of brexit won't affect them. I’m assuming I’m one of the sovereignty two. Yes for me it does trump everything. And of course you are making the assumption that the long term economic impact of Brexit will be negative. Nobody has a crystal ball and can say that this will be the case. The UK may well prosper economically as compared with EU member states. We certainly haven’t experienced the economic doomsday scenario that many predicted following Brexit I am probably in what might be called a reasonable financial position after 40 or so years of hard work. However I hope I have a few more years still left in me! I am not sure what your point is. I don’t believe UK membership of the EU is a good thing for my generation and following ones. I care about my children and grandchildren’s future. My financial standing and possible lifespan do not in any way shape my views. Make no mistake if the Remain vote had won the day it wouldn’t have been a case of maintaining the status quo. The EU would have taken that as a mandate to plough forward with their vision of “ ever closer union” and the last vestiges of sovereignty would have been stripped away. As I have repeated many times let’s work with our European neighbours on areas of mutual benefit but not be hampered by membership of this unwieldy Union. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 10 hours ago, woolley said: Because that's what you are doing in a thread about Brexit, I suppose. Trade was not the driver of Brexit in any event. It was about self-determination. Nah. It was about racism... Huge rise in antisemitic abuse in UK since Hamas attack, says charity The scale of the surge in antisemitism in the UK since Hamas’s attack on Israel on 7 October has been revealed, in data showing a 589% increase in the number of incidents compared with the same period in 2022. The Community Security Trust (CST), which monitors anti-Jewish abuse and attacks and provides security for UK Jewish communities, said the unprecedented increase was a “watershed moment for antisemitism in the UK”. It recorded 4,103 antisemitic incidents in the UK in 2023, the highest total in a calendar year reported to the organisation. Two-thirds of the 2023 incidents occurred after 7 October – 2,699, compared with 392 over the same time period in 2022. https://www.theguardian.com/news/2024/feb/15/huge-rise-in-antisemitic-abuse-in-uk-since-hamas-attack-says-charity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 53 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: I’m assuming I’m one of the sovereignty two. Yes for me it does trump everything. And of course you are making the assumption that the long term economic impact of Brexit will be negative. Nobody has a crystal ball and can say that this will be the case. The UK may well prosper economically as compared with EU member states. We certainly haven’t experienced the economic doomsday scenario that many predicted following Brexit I am probably in what might be called a reasonable financial position after 40 or so years of hard work. However I hope I have a few more years still left in me! 40 years of work would place you around 56 if not older. You may well live into your 80's. You are far from being in the same position as Gen Z or Gen Alpha. Even Millennials are unlikely to have the same lifestyle and opportunities you had. Brexit has reduced that possibility even further as the UK has not improved on any trade agreements that it had whilst a member of the EU and most have got worse. Brexit is an isolationist move in an ever more global economy and simply put the UK on it's own does not have the clout to make significant trade agreements. Take for example a trade agreement with the USA - a currently string and growing economy - why don't we have a trade agreement with that country and the EU does? The young will be the judge of Brexit in the longer term not you. 53 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: Make no mistake if the Remain vote had won the day it wouldn’t have been a case of maintaining the status quo. The EU would have taken that as a mandate to plough forward with their vision of “ ever closer union” and the last vestiges of sovereignty would have been stripped away. If Remain had won, you would on here complaining about it and how your precious Brexit was stolen from you. Nigel Farage would still be actively campaigning for a second referendum. "The question of a second referendum was raised by Mr Farage in an interview with the Mirror in which he said: "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the Remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it." Guess what? The result was the other way and this is unfinished business for many on the Remain side which includes the young who could not vote at that time. Unless some significant and quantifiable Brexit benefit arrives soon expect to see increasing calls from the young to rejoin the EU, to have freedom of movement and unfettered access to the single market. If that happens you can wave goodbye to the GBP and welcome the Euro! At which point I am not sure I will be able to stop myself from laughing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 6 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: If Remain had won, you would on here complaining about it and how your precious Brexit was stolen from you. Nigel Farage would still be actively campaigning for a second referendum. "The question of a second referendum was raised by Mr Farage in an interview with the Mirror in which he said: "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the Remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it." Guess what? The result was the other way and this is unfinished business for many on the Remain side which includes the young who could not vote at that time. Unless some significant and quantifiable Brexit benefit arrives soon expect to see increasing calls from the young to rejoin the EU, to have freedom of movement and unfettered access to the single market. If that happens you can wave goodbye to the GBP and welcome the Euro! At which point I am not sure I will be able to stop myself from laughing! If Remain had won I certainly wouldn’t complain and would accept the democratic decision of the people. How on earth could I argue that my precious Brexit was stolen from me? Sounds like you’re the one doing the complaining! Regarding the size of the majority we’ve been through this before. Farage could have argued all he wanted for a second referendum but he wouldn’t have got one ( nor should he have) so it’s an entirely moot point. It’s not a valid argument. Yes at some stage the demographics of the country may change making a future Remain vote more or less likely but you can’t keep having referendum after referendum until you get the result you wanted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 2 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: If Remain had won I certainly wouldn’t complain and would accept the democratic decision of the people. How on earth could I argue that my precious Brexit was stolen from me? Sounds like you’re the one doing the complaining! Regarding the size of the majority we’ve been through this before. Farage could have argued all he wanted for a second referendum but he wouldn’t have got one ( nor should he have) so it’s an entirely moot point. It’s not a valid argument. Yes at some stage the demographics of the country may change making a future Remain vote more or less likely but you can’t keep having referendum after referendum until you get the result you wanted. Round and round we go.... Farage would absolutely have continued to campaign for a further referendum, just as the SNP will continue to campaign for a second Scottish Independence Referendum (once they get out of their current mess). The Tory party, running scared of UKIP and the ERG and others on the right wing of the party would have caved to a second referendum. You only have to look at what is happening within the Tory party at the moment to see the truth in that. The Tory party continues to rip itself apart over whether Brexit was implemented properly and whether it should be even harder. It also continues to struggle with racism and immigration numbers which despite what you argue were definitely factors in the referendum that delivered the leave result. Personally, I believe that the Tory party deserve everything they get after many, many years of "euro-scepticism" and more recently 14 years of running the UK into the ground culminating in Brexit, a terrible handling of the pandemic and years of infighting leading to the current recession. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 Brexit Britain has ‘significantly underperformed’ other advanced economies, Goldman Sachs says KEY POINTS The U.K. economy is worse off today than before Brexit, according to new analysis from Goldman Sachs. Britain’s decision to leave the European Union has hampered the economy to the tune of 5% versus other comparable countries, the estimates showed. The Wall Street bank attributed the shortfall to three key factors: reduced trade; weaker business investment; and lower immigration from the EU. https://www.cnbc.com/2024/02/14/brexit-has-sliced-5percent-off-uk-economic-growth-goldman-sachs-says.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 13 hours ago, Freggyragh said: I am well aware. I remember that when building was on its uppers in the UK British builders had the option to go and work in Germany, which they did in droves. Thanks to brexit that option has gone. Banging tune I'll give you that. Must be one of the best TV themes ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 6 hours ago, manxman1980 said: The thing is that for two people on here at least sovereignty trumps everything. I suspect those two posters are in a decent financial position and of an age where the long term economic impact of brexit won't affect them. Correct. The long term economic impact, for good or ill, will only unfold over time. I probably have a lot more yesterdays on the clock than tomorrows, but I don't take my stance selfishly. It's for the good of future generations who may have a chance of avoiding the next tyranny in Europe. Only a chance, mind. It's up to them if they wish to slide back in their ignorance or innocence. It's an established principle in life that we seldom learn from the mistakes of those that went before. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 6 hours ago, manxman1980 said: Apart from the US which is has a strong and growing economy. So let's not over egg the global recession. This is not a universal view if you read the FT yesterday. Massive stimulus from the Biden administration, and enforced Covid savings now running out. High employment figures due to folks taking multiple low value jobs to pay down debt, etc. Also, Uncle Sam is always ready to lend a helping hand in a crisis. Like stepping in to replace billions in value of sanctioned Russian hydrocarbon supplies to Europe - at a price. Strong and growing, but for how long? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 3 hours ago, P.K. said: Nah. It was about racism... Huge rise in antisemitic abuse in UK since Hamas attack, says charity But who's doing it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.