manxman1980 Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 5 minutes ago, woolley said: Correct. The long term economic impact, for good or ill, will only unfold over time. I probably have a lot more yesterdays on the clock than tomorrows, but I don't take my stance selfishly. It's for the good of future generations who may have a chance of avoiding the next tyranny in Europe. Only a chance, mind. It's up to them if they wish to slide back in their ignorance or innocence. It's an established principle in life that we seldom learn from the mistakes of those that went before. You realise that in Europe there has previously never been anything like the EU? Yes, there have been empires stretching across Europe and plenty of wars throughout history but never a voluntary co-operation on the scale of the EU. These are sovereign nations choosing to join the EU club. They are not being forced into it by military conquest. Europe does have a long, long history of fighting between countries in many wars, some lasting 100's if years. In leaving the EU the UK has taken up an isolated position and one even the "special relationship" with the USA is not helping with. If you did vote leave for the reasons you have given then you have gambled the future of the young in the hope that the UK somehow does better outside of the EU and Single Market simply because you feel the EU is tyranny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 (edited) 4 hours ago, manxman1980 said: 40 years of work would place you around 56 if not older. You may well live into your 80's. You are far from being in the same position as Gen Z or Gen Alpha. Even Millennials are unlikely to have the same lifestyle and opportunities you had. Brexit has reduced that possibility even further as the UK has not improved on any trade agreements that it had whilst a member of the EU and most have got worse. I agree that life has become harder for the young, but this was a trend long before Brexit was considered. It took root during EU membership. I don't agree with your cause and effect analysis in any case. I don't have a crystal ball, but neither does anyone else. But there you go again. All about trade and blind to all other considerations like they don't exist or don't matter. 4 hours ago, manxman1980 said: Brexit is an isolationist move in an ever more global economy and simply put the UK on it's own does not have the clout to make significant trade agreements. Take for example a trade agreement with the USA - a currently string and growing economy - why don't we have a trade agreement with that country and the EU does? The young will be the judge of Brexit in the longer term not you. Unless some significant and quantifiable Brexit benefit arrives soon expect to see increasing calls from the young to rejoin the EU, to have freedom of movement and unfettered access to the single market. If that happens you can wave goodbye to the GBP and welcome the Euro! At which point I am not sure I will be able to stop myself from laughing! Globalisation is coming off the tracks for all kinds of reasons. Not all it was cracked up to be. Make everything where it is cheapest to enrich the rich further. You regularly post elementary errors while calling other people stupid. The EU does not have a trade deal with the USA. The way things are headed, I think the state of the EU by the time any new referendum comes around to be considered will be such that most people would see it for what it really is and wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. However, who knows what the British Isles will look like by then anyway? Safe to say, if we ever did adopt the euro in my lifetime I would be dusting off the plans I made when Blair was considering it. Every last investment I own would be going into dollars. Edited February 16 by woolley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 25 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: You realise that in Europe there has previously never been anything like the EU? Yes, there have been empires stretching across Europe and plenty of wars throughout history but never a voluntary co-operation on the scale of the EU. These are sovereign nations choosing to join the EU club. They are not being forced into it by military conquest. Europe does have a long, long history of fighting between countries in many wars, some lasting 100's if years. In leaving the EU the UK has taken up an isolated position and one even the "special relationship" with the USA is not helping with. If you did vote leave for the reasons you have given then you have gambled the future of the young in the hope that the UK somehow does better outside of the EU and Single Market simply because you feel the EU is tyranny. I didn't have a vote. I'm in the Isle of Man. Of course there have been attempts at unions in Europe by consent over the centuries, even monetary unions. They always collapse under their own weight and so will this one. The only points of contention are how long it will take and how messy the end will be. An elementary fact of the human experience is that nothing, absolutely nothing, is for ever. The EU is not a tyranny at the moment, but the direction of travel is sinister. It's just a trading bloc, is it not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 (edited) 30 minutes ago, woolley said: You regularly post elementary errors while calling other people stupid. The EU does not have a trade deal with the USA. Okay, I accept that. However, where is the UK - USA trade deal? Edited February 16 by manxman1980 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 (edited) 1 hour ago, woolley said: The EU is not a tyranny at the moment, but the direction of travel is sinister. Well, as you've long suspected, that's because the EU is run by evil Goblins intent on world domination! I wonder if Ukraine had been a member of the EU would Putin have still invaded? I suspect probably not... Edited February 16 by P.K. Poor grammar (Theakston's Old Peculier...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 8 hours ago, woolley said: But who's doing it? Racists ffs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Non-Believer Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 The Tories and the ERG and its supporters are inflicting as much damage to the UK economy as any other factor. Of course they knew this, that's why major proponents of Brexit moved their business interests out of the country before it happened. Strange that. Patriots, one and all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 Missed this first time around. Little wonder David Cameron was running scared of UKIP and diminished our country with his totally stupid brexit referendum. On 2/13/2024 at 4:20 PM, The Voice of Reason said: Mr Sked resigned from the leadership soon afterwards, in protest at Ukip attracting members who “are racist and have been infected by the far-right” i.e. typical tory voters! The tories are headed for a bit of a bashing at a General Election. But they do still have a card to play. So never mind the state of the nation; food banks, millions of children living in poverty, the NHS deliberately being under-funded first by Gideon Osborne and then successive tory PM's, schools falling down, public services being cut etc etc tory voters always always always vote with their wallets. After all, Thatcher made virtues out of selfishness and greed and that suits them just fine. With little left in the public purse only an idiot would give any of it away as free money to a strata of society that simply doesn't need it. Step forward Jeremy Hunt and his much rumoured tax cuts! Because Sunak has to try and keep his core support base because otherwise a lot of the right wing of the tory party will defect to the appalling Richard Tice and the even worse Nigel Farage with their latest collection of right wing racists and terminally thick members of the electoral register known as Reform UK. Not quite enough to tempt me back into the Liberal Democrat fold but since I left them I have to admit that the country has really gone to shit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 5 hours ago, P.K. said: Not quite enough to tempt me back into the Liberal Democrat fold but since I left them I have to admit that the country has really gone to shit... Interesting. The making of our very own plastic socialist. The Guardian view on a Liberal Democrat revoke: a promise that won’t be redeemed Jo Swinson’s offer is just to permanently polarise the electorate around Brexit. The Lib Dems still have no distinctive pitch for issues beyond leaving the EU since the Liberal Democrats’ record European election result and the arrival of their new leader, Jo Swinson, there’s been a spring in their step. Polls show the Lib Dems nipping at Labour’s heels. A victory in the Brecon and Radnorshire byelection and then the defection of half a dozen MPs from rivals in recent weeks has helped to attract a record membership. The party is now hoping to be swollen by an influx of radicalised remainers, attracted by the party’s decision to change its approach to Brexit. Lib Dems no longer want a second Brexit referendum; instead they would simply revoke article 50 without a public vote. This policy will only become law if the Lib Dems win a parliamentary majority, a possibility which the betting markets think has as little as a 5% chance. The party appears not to be serious about power, offering an empty pledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 @The Voice of Reason you also need to read the sentence after the section you have highlighted. They only evoke article 50 IF they won a majority in a general election. Presumably this was a central part of their manifesto. How old is that report by the way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 7 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: @The Voice of Reason you also need to read the sentence after the section you have highlighted. They only evoke article 50 IF they won a majority in a general election. Presumably this was a central part of their manifesto. How old is that report by the way? Pre Ed Davy who took over in 2019 and officially in 2020. I guess @The Voice of Reason had to trawl back a long way to find whatever it was he was looking for... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 1 hour ago, manxman1980 said: @The Voice of Reason you also need to read the sentence after the section you have highlighted. They only evoke article 50 IF they won a majority in a general election. Well obviously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 4 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said: Well obviously. So.... If it was a fundamental part of their manifesto and IF they had won enough seats at a General Election to form a Government then they would have had the required mandate to do just that. As pointed out though you are referring to an article that is several years old. I don't think we will ever see another referendum on EU membership. Rejoining will most likely come after a General Election with a party that has rejoining as a key part of their manifesto. At the moment I don't think we will see any major party do that because the country is still to divided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 6 hours ago, manxman1980 said: I don't think we will ever see another referendum on EU membership. Rejoining will most likely come after a General Election with a party that has rejoining as a key part of their manifesto. At the moment I don't think we will see any major party do that because the country is still to divided. I disagree. Yes the UK joined the EEC without a referendum but still had one to ratify membership. And had another one leading to Brexit from the EU I think the topic is just too politically sensitive to be wrapped up with other manifesto commitments without being dealt with on its own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said: I disagree. Yes the UK joined the EEC without a referendum but still had one to ratify membership. And had another one leading to Brexit from the EU I think the topic is just too politically sensitive to be wrapped up with other manifesto commitments without being dealt with on its own. Whether you agree or not does not matter. It matters whether any party with rejoining the EU as a central policy and who clearly state that they would apply to rejoin without a referendum win enough votes to form a government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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