Brexit Penny Dropping?

[woolley]

On 5/24/2024 at 8:18 AM, P.K. said:

@woolley

 

One of the drivers of the brexit vote was racism thinly disguised as immigration. It doesn't say anything good about the UK that the Reform lot under Tice and Farage are gaining votes on a platform that seems to exist of "immigration" and sod-all else!

And, of course, the rise of right wing politics is exclusive to the UK and doesn't in any way taint the beautiful EU. In reality, the UK is a very tolerant society. Far too tolerant.

https://www.politico.eu/article/mapped-europe-far-right-government-power-politics-eu-italy-finalnd-hungary-parties-elections-polling/

[La Colombe]

More travelling hassle from Brexit. Hopefully Labour will start to undo some of the damage done by the Tories and their daft, deceitful project. 

[P.K.]

2 hours ago, woolley said:

And, of course, the rise of right wing politics is exclusive to the UK and doesn't in any way taint the beautiful EU. In reality, the UK is a very tolerant society. Far too tolerant.

https://www.politico.eu/article/mapped-europe-far-right-government-power-politics-eu-italy-finalnd-hungary-parties-elections-polling/

Measuring how right wing a political party may be seems to me to be as difficult as measuring brexit "benefits" and just as nebulous... It's illuminating that Lee Anderson was too racist even for the tories but fits right in with Reform UK. Mainly because he's also not very bright as his recent online musings on how long will it be before the traditional English post-pissup fry-up is declared racist clearly demonstrate. Not a deep thinker shall we say...

 Tice is a populist, no question, but their policies don't really reflect that they're right-wingers. Having seen that "immigration" was a real winner in the referendum it's their central tenet plus ignoring green policies due to the cost. They also want to cut taxes and have "a war on woke" whatever that is.

In other words the hard of thinking will flock to them...

[The Voice of Reason]

9 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

I actually agree with you to an extent.  Leavers were not confined to one particular political party.

What is true is that it was the Conservative party who brought about the referendum (due to internal party conflict) and that since the result the Conservative party have been the ones responsible for the terrible handling of the leave process.

The anger is not irrational though.  There are plenty of reasons to be angry about Brexit.  You just won't acknowledge them.

Yes you are right that the referendum was brought about mainly by divisions in the Tory Party. But that’s not the point ( don’t shoot the messenger)

Barney keeps repeating that the Brexit vote ( and by extension Brexit itself ) was “ stupid and unnecessary” . Well the result itself, changing the status quo, proves that it wasn't. It was absolutely necessary to implement the will of the electorate.

No one can deny that implementation of Brexit has not been smooth. And I’m angry about certain aspects of that.

A project of that size and complexity never would  be smooth, but not helped by the obstruction of the EU member governments pissed off that the population of the UK were given the opportunity to say what they really thought.  And that thought was to get the hell out of there.

[manxman1980]

7 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Yes you are right that the referendum was brought about mainly by divisions in the Tory Party. But that’s not the point ( don’t shoot the messenger)

Barney keeps repeating that the Brexit vote ( and by extension Brexit itself ) was “ stupid and unnecessary” . Well the result itself, changing the status quo, proves that it wasn't. It was absolutely necessary to implement the will of the electorate.

No one can deny that implementation of Brexit has not been smooth. And I’m angry about certain aspects of that.

A project of that size and complexity never would  be smooth, but not helped by the obstruction of the EU member governments pissed off that the population of the UK were given the opportunity to say what they really thought.  And that thought was to get the hell out of there.

The problem with that view is that there was only really UKIP who had previously been standing on a 'leave' manifesto and whilst they were the cause of the Conservative Party divisions they were nowhere near actually getting an MP elected let alone being able to form a Government.

Now, of course, we have the result of the referendum which you will rightly point too.  My argument on this remains the same as it always has been.  The question was poor, the campaigns on both sides were awful (one side in particular liked to tell lies), and people actually used the referendum as an opportunity to "punish" the Government.  Through in all the other issues which we have been over numerous times and you end up with a relatively slim margin in favour of leaving and no real plan or agreement on what leaving would look like.

As for the EU obstructing the UK... Why would they give the UK favourable treatment?  Remember that the leave campaign had been pushing the "they need us more than we need them" argument.  Also worth remembering how under prepared the UK Government were to negotiate with the EU.  Remember that picture of David Davis and his team?

 

[P.K.]

1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said:

A project of that size and complexity never would  be smooth, but not helped by the obstruction of the EU member governments pissed off that the population of the UK were given the opportunity to say what they really thought.  And that thought was to get the hell out of there.

@The Voice of Reason

What proof do you have of "obstruction of the EU members" because as far as I'm aware they were glad to be shot of complete and utter charlatans like Farage. Incidentally anything published by the Daily Mail, the Express, the Sun or the Telegraph is only "proof" of their propensity to lie about the EU which they've been doing for literally decades....

[The Voice of Reason]

3 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

The problem with that view is that there was only really UKIP who had previously been standing on a 'leave' manifesto and whilst they were the cause of the Conservative Party divisions they were nowhere near actually getting an MP elected let alone being able to form a Government.

Now, of course, we have the result of the referendum which you will rightly point too.  My argument on this remains the same as it always has been.  The question was poor, the campaigns on both sides were awful (one side in particular liked to tell lies), and people actually used the referendum as an opportunity to "punish" the Government.  Through in all the other issues which we have been over numerous times and you end up with a relatively slim margin in favour of leaving and no real plan or agreement on what leaving would look like.

As for the EU obstructing the UK... Why would they give the UK favourable treatment?  Remember that the leave campaign had been pushing the "they need us more than we need them" argument.  Also worth remembering how under prepared the UK Government were to negotiate with the EU.  Remember that picture of David Davis and his team?

 

Re the UKIP thing yes they were the only ones having “leave” as their main proposal. In fact it was their raison d’etre but then again this is immaterial. The fact is there was a referendum on whether the UK should stay in the EU or leave. The people gave their verdict and that was leave.

Campaigns , like all campaigns be they local, national elections or referendum campaigns will be given spin by those supporting a particular side.
Yes the poster on the bus about not contributing £350M weekly to the EU but giving it to the NHS itself was disingenuous given that it didn’t include the rebate. But this was constantly called out by the advocates of Remain throughout  the campaign and those who voted in the referendum  should have factored that into their thinking when voting. It’s not like the Leave campaign weren’t pulled up on it.

I don’t understand the argument about the vote being about “ punishing” the Government. If say the Government was unpopular and a referendum was held say about bringing back capital punishment. Which way would you vote to indicate your displeasure with the Government?
 

I didn’t suggest the EU should give the UK favourable treatment in the Brexit negotiations. But I certainly think at the back (of front)of their minds they may have been thinking well if the third biggest contributor ( I think that’s right) pulls out how long will it be if the whole damn house of cards collapses around us. We need to play hardball. (and you can understand that reasoning)

Edited May 26 by The Voice of Reason

[P.K.]

1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Yes the poster on the bus about not contributing £350M weekly to the EU but giving it to the NHS itself was disingenuous given that it didn’t include the rebate. But this was constantly called out by the advocates of Remain throughout  the campaign and those who voted in the referendum  should have factored that into their thinking when voting. It’s not like the Leave campaign weren’t pulled up on it.

There was an Ipsos Mori poll the week before the referendum on what were the current most important reasons for folks that decided them on which way they would vote:

"Immigration has now surpassed the economy becoming the most important issue for voters. One in three (33%) mention immigration as one of their most important issues (up from 28% in May) compared with 28% saying the economy (down from 33%). There are striking differences on these two issues when looking at them by voting preference. More than half (52%) of those likely to vote to leave in the referendum mention immigration as an issue compared with 14% of those likely to vote to remain while two in five (41%) Remain voters say the economy is an important issue compared with 18% of Leave voters. Other issues mentioned by voters include Britain’s ability to make its own laws (12%), the impact on public services/housing (11%) and the impact on British jobs (8%)."

It's interesting how the "sovereignty" non-issue much hackneyed as the raison d'être by brexiteers on here was actually very low impact on the vote itself at just 12%.

Top of the list was our old favourite "immigration" helped along by the likes of Farage and his infamous "Breaking Point" poster. Little wonder Tice et al have it as the central tenet of their campaign...

[The Voice of Reason]

Watched that clown Steve Bray on a snippet in a news programme wearing a hat bearing the legend “ Why Brexit?”

Well I thought the answer must be obvious to him, however stupid he is as it is to us all, it’s  because the people voted for it.

End of . No more accusations  of the electorate being stupid, xenophobic, racist, being lied to whatever.

Yes I get he doesn’t like the outcome of the referendum. ( I wouldn’t have liked it if it had gone the other way, but so what)

He and other sore losers need to grow up and move on.

 

[La Colombe]

 

[P.K.]

20 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Watched that clown Steve Bray on a snippet in a news programme wearing a hat bearing the legend “ Why Brexit?”

Well I thought the answer must be obvious to him, however stupid he is as it is to us all, it’s  because the people voted for it.

End of . No more accusations  of the electorate being stupid, xenophobic, racist, being lied to whatever.

Yes I get he doesn’t like the outcome of the referendum. ( I wouldn’t have liked it if it had gone the other way, but so what)

He and other sore losers need to grow up and move on.

One of the problems of our democracy is that it is based mainly on trust.

People trust their representatives to serve their best interests and not their own. They trust them not to tell lies. They trust them to think through the ramifications of policies and to be truthful about their outcomes. In other words they trust their representatives to do their difficult thinking for them. Someone rather harshly pointed that 50% of the electorate are below average intelligence. So this trust is important for a fair and just society.

The brexit referendum gave us all a stark example of what happens when unscrupulous politicians driven by self-interest betray that trust to the detriment of us all. As that nice Steve Bray said to the Guardian “Our political system is very flawed. This government has shown how bad a system run on trust is. There is no integrity, no honour, no decency and no morals.” 

As a country the UK is in a terrible mess, no question, and brexit has to take some of the blame for that.

So it's only right that those who were lied to and deliberately misled and deceived should expect some redress from the guilty who brought this awful situation about. 

@The Voice of Reason above clearly wants all discussion on brexit to end. Not only due to all the brexit shortcomings more of which are coming to light all the time but also because I pointed that the brexiteers on here much vaunted get out of jail free card "sovereignty" scored a very low 12% on the voters reason to leave. The biggest reason being, of course, our old friend "immigration" with it's much darker unspoken side.

Here https://youtu.be/uyyOyoeqKfM?si=dAr8_AHl7R0F9pJA is Ian Hislop on Question Time explaining why the debate should and must continue. It's also very amusing how all the sour faces in the audience are brexiteers...

 

[The Voice of Reason]

[P.K.]

A sure sign that all the "arguments" for brexit, like the @The Voice of Reason , have run out of road...

[La Colombe]

 

[Mr. Sausages]

Reminded me of this thing of beauty