Brexit Penny Dropping?

[manxman1980]

21 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

I think the point that was being made was that the Allied forces weren’t asked to produce passports when when they stormed the beaches on D day

WTF? You think that in a time of war that countries are going to bother about border checks?

Did the Russian army wait at the borders of the Ukraine so that the Ukrainian Border Control could check their passports?

[The Voice of Reason]

Just now, manxman1980 said:

WTF? You think that in a time of war that countries are going to bother about border checks?

Did the Russian army wait at the borders of the Ukraine so that the Ukrainian Border Control could check their passports?

I think you have misunderstood my post.

 

[manxman1980]

1 minute ago, The Voice of Reason said:

I think you have misunderstood my post.

 

I haven't seen a post here suggesting your interpretation.

[The Voice of Reason]

4 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

I haven't seen a post here suggesting your interpretation.

OK I’ll spell it out.

Yes the French had to check the veterans passports.

But given their actions on , and the purpose of D Day some might interpret that as being somewhat ungrateful 

But I’m sure the vets were fine with it.

Edited June 7 by The Voice of Reason
Add last sentence

[RecklessAbandon]

1 minute ago, The Voice of Reason said:

OK I’ll spell it out.

Yes the French had to check the veterans passports.

But given their actions on , and the purpose of D Day some might interpret that as being somewhat ungrateful 

But I’m sure the vets were fine with it.

Your projection is showing.

[Mr. Sausages]

16 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

OK I’ll spell it out.

Yes the French had to check the veterans passports.

But given their actions on , and the purpose of D Day some might interpret that as being somewhat ungrateful 

But I’m sure the vets were fine with it.

That interpretation would be absolutely fucking mental.

[manxman1980]

On 6/6/2024 at 8:29 AM, La Colombe said:

 

@The Voice of Reason the paratroopers in this video look at little young to be D-Day veterans.  I am sure the veterans who travelled to France by air, ferry or Eurotunnel this week would have had their passports checked at the French Borders as well.

The amusing thing about that video is that they had clearly engaged with the French authorities to have the paratroopers land their and to ensure that the troops had their passports, however, they could not organise for them to have had the required checks done before they boarded the plane.  Nor did they think to arrange for the aircraft to take off in France and therefore avoid the need for these checks.

Just another example of the lack of foresight in planning such events on the international stage. 

[La Colombe]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Sausages said:

That interpretation would be absolutely fucking mental.

 

[John Wright]

43 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

Nor did they think to arrange for the aircraft to take off in France and therefore avoid the need for these checks.

The Americans did that. landed normally, passports checked. Then took off from France and did the drop.

[P.K.]

MOD Form 90 used to be sufficient.

[The Voice of Reason]

12 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

@The Voice of Reason the paratroopers in this video look at little young to be D-Day veterans.  I am sure the veterans who travelled to France by air, ferry or Eurotunnel this week would have had their passports checked at the French Borders as well.

The amusing thing about that video is that they had clearly engaged with the French authorities to have the paratroopers land their and to ensure that the troops had their passports, however, they could not organise for them to have had the required checks done before they boarded the plane.  Nor did they think to arrange for the aircraft to take off in France and therefore avoid the need for these checks.

Just another example of the lack of foresight in planning such events on the international stage. 

You are quite right, the paratroopers represented the D-Day veterans. They were not veterans themselves.

But I hope you understand that the thing is that those selfless, hapless soldiers who landed on the beaches, many of whom died there, obviously didn’t have to present their passports as you seem to suggest is the point of media comment. 

It does seem a bit incongruous that those  representing and re enacting the sacrifices made now have to do so. But rules are rules and yes should be adhered to.

As for organizing things to avoid this embarrassing situation , such as you suggest landing  in France , clearing Customs ( Douane) before proceeding on to the landing beaches themselves.
Why  go to such lengths and expense when it’s only a hop and a skip across the Channel to get from one part of Britain to a near part of France. It’s not that far.

If these formalities have to be conducted in a field so be it. The Allied forces landed on those beaches on D Day certainly had more to be concerned about. 
 

God bless them. We owe them a lot.

[manxman1980]

8 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

You are quite right, the paratroopers represented the D-Day veterans. They were not veterans themselves.

But I hope you understand that the thing is that those selfless, hapless soldiers who landed on the beaches, many of whom died there, obviously didn’t have to present their passports as you seem to suggest is the point of media comment. 

I didn't suggest that the soldiers on D-Day would have to go via passport control.   That was your interpretation. 

8 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

It does seem a bit incongruous that those  representing and re enacting the sacrifices made now have to do so. But rules are rules and yes should be adhered to.

Yes, and Britain could have enforced stricter border controls whilst it was in the EU but chose not too.

8 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

As for organizing things to avoid this embarrassing situation , such as you suggest landing  in France , clearing Customs ( Douane) before proceeding on to the landing beaches themselves.
Why  go to such lengths and expense when it’s only a hop and a skip across the Channel to get from one part of Britain to a near part of France. It’s not that far.

What extra expenses do you think would have been incurred? 

You realise that these paratroopers have to return to their base after this display? 

As they cannot just jump back up into a circling plane they will have had to travel to an airport and board a plane to return to the UK or have to go via some other means.

Either way the cost is going to be about the same.  One just removes the ridiculous sight of paratroopers going through passport control in a field.

8 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

If these formalities have to be conducted in a field so be it. The Allied forces landed on those beaches on D Day certainly had more to be concerned about. 
 

God bless them. We owe them a lot.

I wonder what those veterans would think of the UK becoming an increasingly isolated state?  What would they think of the current rise of far right populism?

We do owe them a lot.  I personally have visited many of the Allied war graves in Europe to pay my respects.

What I find remarkable is that we in the UK do come together at times of memorial events but the rest of the time we ignore or forget about it.

Visit Ypres, and some of the other towns in France and Belgium and you will see that the sacrifice are remembered daily.

[The Voice of Reason]

7 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

 

 

 

Don’t know what’s going on above.

Anyway I’m going to post this in the sure knowledge that PK will rubbish it because of its source. And yes it’s an opinion piece ( an opinion I agree with) but isn’t that what a forum is all about?

British Remainers’ EU dreams are about to turn into a nightmare

The European bloc has been steadily moving towards the Right, but supposed Europhiles haven’t yet taken notice

CAMILLA TOMINEY

ASSOCIATE EDITOR

8 June 2024 • 10:00am

 

Have British Europhiles really woken up to what is happening in Europe? Their attitudes towards the EU have always been woefully naive, informed more by their summer holidays in Tuscany and their enjoyment of “sophisticated” European culture than by any real knowledge of how politics on the continent works.

They have spent years criticising Britain as some sort of bigoted backwater, a world apart from that supposed bastion of liberal values, Brussels. Now, however, they may be about to get a massive wake-up call.

Across the EU, people are increasingly voting for hard-Right parties. The European elections began in the Netherlands on Thursday morning and will carry on across the 27 member countries until Sunday night, with the final results known early on Monday.

All the polls are predicting huge gains for Right-wing parties, including some worryingly extreme ones. The Alternative for Germany party – one of whose candidates recently suggested there were good people to be found in the Nazi SS – could come out ahead of Olaf Scholz’s Social Democratic Party.

In France, Marine Le Pen’s National Rally party is expected to trounce president Emmanuel Macron’s Renaissance; in Italy, prime minister Giorgia Meloni’s Brothers of Italy party, which has its roots in the country’s fascist past, is due to increase its number of seats in the European Parliament. The nationalist Law and Justice party is looking to make a comeback in Poland after losing power last December. It follows a shock win for populist Geert Wilders’ Party for Freedom in last November’s Dutch general election.

Yet still Europhiles want to rejoin the bloc – despite some of these European hardliners making Nigel Farage look like Ken Clarke.

We know that, if Labour gets into power, arch-Remainer Sir Keir Starmer is going to push for closer alignment with the EU – because shadow foreign secretary David Lammy has hinted as much. Yet if Right-wing groups do end up substantially increasing their share of the seats in the European Parliament, Starmer and co might want to be careful what they wish for.

This is the truth of the lie about the EU: even post-Brexit, Britain has always been much more tolerant than some of its continental cousins.

[woolley]

9 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

I wonder what those veterans would think of the UK becoming an increasingly isolated state?  What would they think of the current rise of far right populism?

If you start to go down that road, where do you stop? Everyone is of their time.

What would they also think of the permissive society, abolition of capital punishment, multiracial society, decline of Christianity and virtual abolition of the Sabbath, gay liberation, globalisation, corporate greed, ceding of lawmaking to a European union, diminution of respect for authority, vandalism, devolution, pop music, commercial television, drug crime, gang wars, minors stabbing each other on the streets as a commonplace occurrence?

The list of things that would shock those who died 80 years ago is very long.

[woolley]

1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Don’t know what’s going on above.

Anyway I’m going to post this in the sure knowledge that PK will rubbish it because of its source. And yes it’s an opinion piece ( an opinion I agree with) but isn’t that what a forum is all about?

 

British Remainers’ EU dreams are about to turn into a nightmare

The European bloc has been steadily moving towards the Right, but supposed Europhiles haven’t yet taken notice

CAMILLA TOMINEY

ASSOCIATE EDITOR

8 June 2024 • 10:00am

 

Have British Europhiles really woken up to what is happening in Europe? Their attitudes towards the EU have always been woefully naive, informed more by their summer holidays in Tuscany and their enjoyment of “sophisticated” European culture than by any real knowledge of how politics on the continent works.

They have spent years criticising Britain as some sort of bigoted backwater, a world apart from that supposed bastion of liberal values, Brussels. Now, however, they may be about to get a massive wake-up call.

Across the EU, people are increasingly voting for hard-Right parties. The European elections began in the Netherlands on Thursday morning and will carry on across the 27 member countries until Sunday night, with the final results known early on Monday.

All the polls are predicting huge gains for Right-wing parties, including some worryingly extreme ones. The Alternative for Germany party – one of whose candidates recently suggested there were good people to be found in the Nazi SS – could come out ahead of Olaf Scholz’s Social Democratic Party.

In France, Marine Le Pen’s National Rally party is expected to trounce president Emmanuel Macron’s Renaissance; in Italy, prime minister Giorgia Meloni’s Brothers of Italy party, which has its roots in the country’s fascist past, is due to increase its number of seats in the European Parliament. The nationalist Law and Justice party is looking to make a comeback in Poland after losing power last December. It follows a shock win for populist Geert Wilders’ Party for Freedom in last November’s Dutch general election.

Yet still Europhiles want to rejoin the bloc – despite some of these European hardliners making Nigel Farage look like Ken Clarke.

We know that, if Labour gets into power, arch-Remainer Sir Keir Starmer is going to push for closer alignment with the EU – because shadow foreign secretary David Lammy has hinted as much. Yet if Right-wing groups do end up substantially increasing their share of the seats in the European Parliament, Starmer and co might want to be careful what they wish for.

This is the truth of the lie about the EU: even post-Brexit, Britain has always been much more tolerant than some of its continental cousins.

This precisely is what I have meant for years when I question the future direction of "the project", and how it transcends other considerations. The even more disturbing thing is that many of those leaning far right now are not the old fossils longing for the days of their youth. They are today's youngsters from 16 upward, given the vote for the first time, seduced by what they see online about the rise of the right and the failure of the left.