Mr. Sausages Posted June 26 Share Posted June 26 Pretty sure these people post on manxforums 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 Questions for the Brexiteers... 1. Is England a Sovereign State? 2. Is Scotland a Sovereign State? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 9 hours ago, manxman1980 said: Questions for the Brexiteers... 1. Is England a Sovereign State? 2. Is Scotland a Sovereign State? This should answer your question Although the United Kingdom is a sovereign country, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are also widely referred to as countries. The UK Prime Minister's website has used the phrase "countries within a country" to describe the United Kingdom. Hope this helps. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 9 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said: This should answer your question Although the United Kingdom is a sovereign country, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are also widely referred to as countries. The UK Prime Minister's website has used the phrase "countries within a country" to describe the United Kingdom. Hope this helps. In which case, if sovereignty if so important for a nation, I assume you support full devolution and the independence of Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England? If the constituent parts of the UK are nations then by Brexiteer logic they should be sovereign and have the right to self determination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 (edited) 1 hour ago, manxman1980 said: In which case, if sovereignty if so important for a nation, I assume you support full devolution and the independence of Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England? If the constituent parts of the UK are nations then by Brexiteer logic they should be sovereign and have the right to self determination. It doesn’t take a genius to see where you were heading with your question last night! Anyway the Scots declared in their referendum of a few years ago that they themselves didn’t want independence from the sovereign UK. And who am I ( or you) to disagree with them and tell them otherwise? Edited June 28 by The Voice of Reason Addition of (or you) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 7 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: It doesn’t take a genius to see where you were heading with your question last night! Anyway the Scots declared in their referendum of a few years ago that they themselves didn’t want independence from the sovereign UK. And who am I disagree with them and tell them otherwise? But, you fall into the trap, and contradict your own denial of pooled/shared sovereignty. Although the UK is not a federal state, the three countries NI, Scotland and Wales do have sovereignty, and their sovereignty is limited to specific areas of competency, agreed with Westminster. Of course that means that Westminster has surrendered some of its sovereignty. Quite a lot in reality, probably more than it pooled or shared with the EU. Sovereignty is an argument that is so full of holes that it’s a philosophical and political non starter as a real justification for Brexit. It’s a Peppers Ghost trick. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 36 minutes ago, John Wright said: But, you fall into the trap, and contradict your own denial of pooled/shared sovereignty. Although the UK is not a federal state, the three countries NI, Scotland and Wales do have sovereignty, and their sovereignty is limited to specific areas of competency, agreed with Westminster. Of course that means that Westminster has surrendered some of its sovereignty. Quite a lot in reality, probably more than it pooled or shared with the EU. Sovereignty is an argument that is so full of holes that it’s a philosophical and political non starter as a real justification for Brexit. It’s a Peppers Ghost trick. Internal redistribution of decision making and powers within the sovereign UK as appropriate, bears no comparison with surrendering them to an outside third party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 1 minute ago, The Voice of Reason said: Internal redistribution of decision making and powers within the sovereign UK as appropriate, bears no comparison with surrendering them to an outside third party. But they weren’t surrendered. Decision making in some limited areas or competencies was shared, with, in most cases, the UK retaining a veto, and so very, very, few decisions that eventually came to be decided under qualified majority voting ever went against the UKs vote/position. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted June 29 Share Posted June 29 6 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said: It doesn’t take a genius to see where you were heading with your question last night! Anyway the Scots declared in their referendum of a few years ago that they themselves didn’t want independence from the sovereign UK. And who am I ( or you) to disagree with them and tell them otherwise? What about Wales and Northern Ireland? They haven't had a referendum. In fact neither has England. What's so special about the United Kingdom? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 29 Share Posted June 29 On 6/27/2024 at 11:10 PM, manxman1980 said: Questions for the Brexiteers... 1. Is England a Sovereign State? 2. Is Scotland a Sovereign State? No. The UK is the sovereign state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 29 Share Posted June 29 On 6/28/2024 at 6:12 PM, manxman1980 said: In which case, if sovereignty if so important for a nation, I assume you support full devolution and the independence of Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England? If the constituent parts of the UK are nations then by Brexiteer logic they should be sovereign and have the right to self determination. No. I support the sovereignty of the UK. You are mixing devolution up with sovereignty. Your second paragraph doesn't follow at all, and it certainly isn't logical. Not unless you are a nationalist in one of those countries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 29 Share Posted June 29 On 6/28/2024 at 7:39 PM, John Wright said: But, you fall into the trap, and contradict your own denial of pooled/shared sovereignty. Although the UK is not a federal state, the three countries NI, Scotland and Wales do have sovereignty, and their sovereignty is limited to specific areas of competency, agreed with Westminster. Of course that means that Westminster has surrendered some of its sovereignty. Quite a lot in reality, probably more than it pooled or shared with the EU. Sovereignty is an argument that is so full of holes that it’s a philosophical and political non starter as a real justification for Brexit. It’s a Peppers Ghost trick. This elementary level piffle yet again. There is no such thing as pooled sovereignty. It is a contradiction in terms. Your concept of sovereignty being "limited to specific areas of competency" is nonsense. Are you going to say that Merseyside is sovereign in the public functions it controls? Or Nether Wallop Parish Council for that matter? This is not sovereignty. NI, Scotland and Wales do not have sovereignty. They have powers devolved from the UK Parliament in certain competences, but the UK remains a unitary state and is sovereign. What the state has the power to give, it also has the power to take away. The UK Parliament retains the jurisdiction to repeal the Acts setting up the devolved assemblies at any time of its choosing, just as it had the power to repeal the European Communities Act 1972. The difference between the EU and all of those devolved assemblies, of course, is that the treaties signed up over the years ceded ever more power to the EU to make binding law over the head of the UK, and there was nothing that could be done about it so long as the UK remained a member state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 29 Share Posted June 29 On 6/28/2024 at 8:29 PM, The Voice of Reason said: Internal redistribution of decision making and powers within the sovereign UK as appropriate, bears no comparison with surrendering them to an outside third party. Of course. The only sensible view which will become more apparent as time goes by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 29 Share Posted June 29 On 6/28/2024 at 8:34 PM, John Wright said: But they weren’t surrendered. Decision making in some limited areas or competencies was shared, with, in most cases, the UK retaining a veto, and so very, very, few decisions that eventually came to be decided under qualified majority voting ever went against the UKs vote/position. Simply not true. They were de-facto surrendered for the duration of EU membership. Once you sign up for a treaty that's it cast in stone - unless you leave. QMV is spreading its tentacles with ambition for more, and the veto is continually under attack by the centre and various interest groups. Very, very few is too many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 29 Share Posted June 29 22 hours ago, manxman1980 said: What about Wales and Northern Ireland? They haven't had a referendum. In fact neither has England. What's so special about the United Kingdom? It's the sovereign state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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