Brexit Penny Dropping?

[manxman1980]

8 hours ago, woolley said:

No. I support the sovereignty of the UK. You are mixing devolution up with sovereignty. Your second paragraph doesn't follow at all, and it certainly isn't logical. Not unless you are a nationalist in one of those countries.

Right...

So leaving the EU gives the UK sovereignty but any attempt to give sovereignty to the nations that form part of the UK is devolution?

Scotland,  Northern Ireland and Wales are ultimately governed by a foreign state.  Don't you understand that?

England, is a bit different as the Government sits in London and it has the majority of MPs but it gives up some voting rights to the other members of the UK.

Why do Brexiteers struggle with this?

[Max Power]

7 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

Right...

So leaving the EU gives the UK sovereignty but any attempt to give sovereignty to the nations that form part of the UK is devolution?

Scotland,  Northern Ireland and Wales are ultimately governed by a foreign state.  Don't you understand that?

England, is a bit different as the Government sits in London and it has the majority of MPs but it gives up some voting rights to the other members of the UK.

Why do Brexiteers struggle with this?

Very similar to the US system where they have state legislatures. Nobody would say that the US isn't a sovereign nation, but individual states have individual laws and powers? In Britain, the British government has sovereignty and can override decisions made in the devolved parliaments.   

[The Voice of Reason]

Furthermore England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales were not  members of the European Union. The United Kingdom was a member of the European Union.

The Union Flag, not the Saltire or the Flag  of St George etc, was flown alongside the flag of other EU members in Strasbourg and Brussels.

 

Edited June 30 by The Voice of Reason
Lost last couple of original paragraphs

[manxman1980]

3 hours ago, Max Power said:

Very similar to the US system where they have state legislatures. Nobody would say that the US isn't a sovereign nation, but individual states have individual laws and powers? In Britain, the British government has sovereignty and can override decisions made in the devolved parliaments.   

Those are states not nations.  I am not talking about Derbyshire or Rutland become sovereign. 

2 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Furthermore England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales were not  members of the European Union. The United Kingdom was a member of the European Union.

The Union Flag, not the Saltire or the Flag  of St George etc, was flown alongside the flag of other EU members in Strasbourg and Brussels.

 

And?  I am not talking about Brexit.  I am talking about the rights of the nations in the UK and them being sovereign. 

If it is so important why would you deny it to those nations?

[The Voice of Reason]

1 hour ago, manxman1980 said:

Those are states not nations.  I am not talking about Derbyshire or Rutland become sovereign. 

And?  I am not talking about Brexit.  I am talking about the rights of the nations in the UK and them being sovereign. 

If it is so important why would you deny it to those nations?

I’m not denying anything to anyone.

If Scotland, Wales  England or Northern Ireland ( although NI has its own preoccupations) want out of the UK, as proven by a referendum that’s fine by me.

I don’t think I’ve ever said otherwise 

[TheTeapot]

[Max Power]

2 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

Those are states not nations.  I am not talking about Derbyshire or Rutland become sovereign. 

For the purposes of nationality, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are no different to New Hampshire, Maine and Rhode Island. One group are states of the UK, the other states of the US. Neither are actually separate countries. 

Derbyshire or Rutland, indeed Ayrshire, Down and Glamorgan are counties, as each US state is made up of counties. 

[woolley]

15 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

Right...

So leaving the EU gives the UK sovereignty but any attempt to give sovereignty to the nations that form part of the UK is devolution?

Scotland,  Northern Ireland and Wales are ultimately governed by a foreign state.  Don't you understand that?

England, is a bit different as the Government sits in London and it has the majority of MPs but it gives up some voting rights to the other members of the UK.

Why do Brexiteers struggle with this?

No they are not. They are every bit as much a part of the UK as England is.

Again, you misunderstand sovereignty. Granting devolved powers to parts of the UK does not involve a transfer of sovereignty to them.

ETA: Incidentally, devolution was certainly not an "attempt to give sovereignty to the nations that form part of the UK".  On the contrary, it was intended to forestall independence movements looking to take sovereignty. The idea was that a Parliament would draw the sting from the nationalists wanting full independence, and the problem would go away. Instead, it blew up in our faces.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/wintour-and-watt/2011/may/06/snp-alexsalmond

Edited June 30 by woolley

[woolley]

1 hour ago, Max Power said:

For the purposes of nationality, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are no different to New Hampshire, Maine and Rhode Island. One group are states of the UK, the other states of the US. Neither are actually separate countries. 

Derbyshire or Rutland, indeed Ayrshire, Down and Glamorgan are counties, as each US state is made up of counties. 

Hmmm. I think nationality is a knotty one as in the US people would proclaim themselves as Americans first except for some Texans, maybe. Over this side of the pond, you would be hard pushed to find a Scot who identified as British first (or at all) rather than Scottish. Similar with Welsh although not quite so vociferously. Ireland is a one-off. English nationality was discouraged and subsumed into British within the Empire. It's only now making a comeback. All to do with the history on both sides.

There is also a fundamental difference in that the USA is a federal state with a division of powers between national and state authorities under the US constitution, whereas the UK is a unitary state with all power exercised by, or in the gift of, the UK government.

[Cambon]

@P.K.At the end of Q2 on Friday, the UK’s FTSE100 was the only major European borse that ended the quarter positive, being up 2% over the period. 

Edited July 1 by Cambon

[manxman1980]

23 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

I’m not denying anything to anyone.

If Scotland, Wales  England or Northern Ireland ( although NI has its own preoccupations) want out of the UK, as proven by a referendum that’s fine by me.

I don’t think I’ve ever said otherwise 

You keep saying that Scotland cannot have another referendum for a "generation".  

I haven't exactly seen you call for the other nations to have a referendum. 

22 hours ago, Max Power said:

For the purposes of nationality, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are no different to New Hampshire, Maine and Rhode Island. One group are states of the UK, the other states of the US. Neither are actually separate countries. 

Derbyshire or Rutland, indeed Ayrshire, Down and Glamorgan are counties, as each US state is made up of counties. 

Most people in the UK, maybe with tye exception of the English, will identify their nationality with their country of birth.  Born is Scotland?   Scottish.  Born in Wales? Welsh.  Born in Northern Ireland?  Well that's a bit more complicated.

Those nations may have some shared history but historically had very different cultures. 

[The Voice of Reason]

2 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

You keep saying that Scotland cannot have another referendum for a "generation".  

I haven't exactly seen you call for the other nations to have a referendum. 

 

Well do you want Scotland to have a referendum every couple of weeks?

There is little appetite in Wales for independence, only 31% of the Welsh actually want a referendum, but yes bring it on. No skin off my nose.

NI will have their own referendum in due course under the terms of the Good Friday agreement.

Whilst I haven’t been “ exactly”  been calling for England to have such a referendum. I haven’t “exactly” said there shouldn’t be one. I am really ambivalent about it.

Right I think that’s all bases covered. 

Anything else?
 

 

[manxman1980]

16 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Well do you want Scotland to have a referendum every couple of weeks?

Your response is ridiculous.

If the democratically elected representatives sitting in Holyrood want a referendum then they should not have to ask permission from Westminster (a 'foreign' Parliament). 

We have been over why I believe Scotland should be allowed a second independence referendum several times so I am not going to repeat it.

To be fair if Westminster were to allow a referendum at this point in time it's likely Scotland would vote to stay due to the mess the SNP are in.

16 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

There is little appetite in Wales for independence, only 31% of the Welsh actually want a referendum, but yes bring it on. No skin off my nose.

NI will have their own referendum in due course under the terms of the Good Friday agreement.

Whilst I haven’t been “ exactly”  been calling for England to have such a referendum. I haven’t “exactly” said there shouldn’t be one. I am really ambivalent about it.

Right I think that’s all bases covered. 

Anything else?

Would you care to explain why, if Brexiteers are so keen on sovereignty,  they keep suggesting that allowing the constituent nations of the UK to have their own sovereignty is a bad thing?

[The Voice of Reason]

49 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

 

Would you care to explain why, if Brexiteers are so keen on sovereignty,  they keep suggesting that allowing the constituent nations of the UK to have their own sovereignty is a bad thing?

Do they? 

I’ve not heard any such repeated suggestions from the Brexit side.

Sounds more like a Remain sort of thing. They seem to prefer maintaining  the status quo.
 

[manxman1980]

18 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Do they? 

I’ve not heard any such repeated suggestions from the Brexit side.

Sounds more like a Remain sort of thing. They seem to prefer maintaining  the status quo.
 

You would think do wouldn't you? 

Look back over the last couple of pages though and you will see Brexit supporters only calling for the UK to have sovereignty.