The Voice of Reason Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 2 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: You would think do wouldn't you? Look back over the last couple of pages though and you will see Brexit supporters only calling for the UK to have sovereignty. Because that is what the Brexit debate is about! The vote in the referendum was about whether the UK should remain in, or leave the EU, nothing to do with internal UK issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 14 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: Because that is what the Brexit debate is about! The vote in the referendum was about whether the UK should remain in, or leave the EU, nothing to do with internal UK issues. How many more times - Reasons given for voting Leave: Immigration - 52% Sovereignty - 12% While the much hackneyed "sovereignty" is front and centre and would like this question answered: The UK officially joined the EU (EEC as was) on the 1st January 1973. How was it that "sovereignty" was never an issue until 2015? Some forty-two years later... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 8 minutes ago, P.K. said: How many more times - Reasons given for voting Leave: Immigration - 52% Sovereignty - 12% While the much hackneyed "sovereignty" is front and centre and would like this question answered: The UK officially joined the EU (EEC as was) on the 1st January 1973. How was it that "sovereignty" was never an issue until 2015? Some forty-two years later... I think Manxman was asking about independence for the UK as a whole v independence for the constituent countries, rather than the reasons for the result of the referendum. I think you have missed the point but I’m sure Manxman can clarify Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 10 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: I think Manxman was asking about independence for the UK as a whole v independence for the constituent countries, rather than the reasons for the result of the referendum. I think you have missed the point but I’m sure Manxman can clarify I think you have missed the question thus: "The UK officially joined the EU (EEC as was) on the 1st January 1973. How was it that "sovereignty" was never an issue until 2015? Some forty-two years later..." Looking forward to your answer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said: I think Manxman was asking about independence for the UK as a whole v independence for the constituent countries, rather than the reasons for the result of the referendum. I think you have missed the point but I’m sure Manxman can clarify Yes, the referendum was about the UK as a whole, although, broken down by constituent countries on England voted leave. The other countries voted remain but that's a quirk of the voting system. What I don't understand is if sovereignty is so important why would people who supported Brexit not be in favour of the break up of the UK in order that each nation becomes sovereign. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 3 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: Yes, the referendum was about the UK as a whole, although, broken down by constituent countries on England voted leave. The other countries voted remain but that's a quirk of the voting system. What I don't understand is if sovereignty is so important why would people who supported Brexit not be in favour of the break up of the UK in order that each nation becomes sovereign. Well I’m not sure there is the correlation you are suggesting. But they are different issues. As has been pointed out many times the relationship between the UK and the EU is (was) a completely different one to those between the constituent countries of the UK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exotic Bird Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 Ironically, it's probable that the possibility of being forced out of the EU in the event of opting for independent sovereignty from Westminster swung the earlier referendum. Scotland was conned in effect. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exotic Bird Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 So many benefits. And sovereignty of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 7 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said: As has been pointed out many times the relationship between the UK and the EU is (was) a completely different one to those between the constituent countries of the UK Go on explain it and if it comes back to England invading or otherwise grabbing ultimate control of the other three nations then you are in a real difficult spot. The EU was, and is, made up of nations who have chosen to join and have the right to leave. The UK on the other hand... That is why I have an issue with Brexiteers going on and on about sovereignty for the UK but then not calling for it to go further and allow each of Scotland, England, Wales & Northern Ireland to become true independent nations and in the case of Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales, ruled over by a 'foreign' power. And before anyone says it, yes those nations all get representatives in that Parliament but nowhere near enough to be able to block a motion from English MP's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 3 hours ago, manxman1980 said: The EU was, and is, made up of nations who have chosen to join and have the right to leave. The UK on the other hand... That is why I have an issue with Brexiteers going on and on about sovereignty for the UK but then not calling for it to go further and allow each of Scotland, England, Wales & Northern Ireland to become true independent nations and in the case of Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales, ruled over by a 'foreign' power. Firstly re your first paragraph. Your implication is that the nations who make up the UK do not have the right to leave it. OK maybe not the “right” but had the recent Scottish referendum gone the other way they would have had a strong case, hard to resist that they should be allowed to leave. In much the same way as people talk about the Brexit referendum as being merely “ advisory “. As it transpired the Scots in a majority decision decided they would rather stay within the Union. Re your second paragraph why on earth do you have this issue about Brexiteers not campaigning for true independence for the constituent nations of the UK .? Why on earth should they be obligated to? It’s a truly bizarre point of view. You will have guessed by now I am a “Brexiteer” who wanted the UK to leave the EU. By what stretch of the imagination does that mean I should demand that the four countries making up the UK should all become independent.? As I have said before if any, or all of these four countries express their will in a referendum to become independent, then fine I don’t have a problem with it. Let it happen. But the idea that those who voted for the UK to leave the EU should be spearheading a campaign for each of the four countries in the Union to be fully independent is, to be honest completely irrational ( nuts really) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 13 hours ago, manxman1980 said: Yes, the referendum was about the UK as a whole, although, broken down by constituent countries on England voted leave. The other countries voted remain but that's a quirk of the voting system. What I don't understand is if sovereignty is so important why would people who supported Brexit not be in favour of the break up of the UK in order that each nation becomes sovereign. You have had this answered several times with facts rather than opinions. Not sure how many different ways you want it explained. Wales voted Leave too, incidentally. It's immaterial though, because it was a UK vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 3 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said: But the idea that those who voted for the UK to leave the EU should be spearheading a campaign for each of the four countries in the Union to be fully independent is, to be honest completely irrational ( nuts really) Absolutely. It is completely off the wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 @woolley @The Voice of Reason Sovereignty? You keep bleating on about the UK not having it whilst in the UK. By the same token the constituent countries of the UK don't have Sovereignty whilst in the UK. All I am doing is applying your argument for Brexit to another collection of nations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 9 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said: Firstly re your first paragraph. Your implication is that the nations who make up the UK do not have the right to leave it. OK maybe not the “right” but had the recent Scottish referendum gone the other way they would have had a strong case, hard to resist that they should be allowed to leave. In much the same way as people talk about the Brexit referendum as being merely “ advisory “. As it transpired the Scots in a majority decision decided they would rather stay within the Union. As I said before things have changed massively since the independence referendum. A large part of the No campaign was based around Scotland being forced out of the EU if it left the UK. A few years later it is forced out anyway. 9 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said: Re your second paragraph why on earth do you have this issue about Brexiteers not campaigning for true independence for the constituent nations of the UK .? Why on earth should they be obligated to? It’s a truly bizarre point of view. I don't expect them to campaign for it. I am just trying to understand why the all important sovereignty seems to stop at the UK for many. 9 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said: As I have said before if any, or all of these four countries express their will in a referendum to become independent, then fine I don’t have a problem with it. Let it happen. They can't have a referendum though unless Westminster gives permission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 2 hours ago, manxman1980 said: They can't have a referendum though unless Westminster gives permission. Prior to that they have to request one. Scotland did and was granted one. The SNP didn’t get the result it wanted so have agitated for indyref2, denied to them, not only by Westminster but also the Supreme Court. A decent passage of time has to elapse before you get a second bite at the cherry. Circumstances change all the time and even if Scotland didn’t foresee the Brexit vote going the way it did, their misjudgment doesn’t give them a second go ( certainly not so soon after the first independence referendum) Anyway if the SNP ( as the cheerleaders for Scottish independence) fare as badly as some are predicting in today’s General Election it all becomes a bit of a moot point. Re the other three countries, their Governments ( as far as I am aware) have not requested a referendum on independence and it wouldn’t be right to foist one upon them. So to recap, the four countries make up the UK. The UK made a collective decision to leave the EU, notwithstanding what the constituent countries ( or even your neighbour next door) voted for 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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