Brexit Penny Dropping?

[woolley]

27 minutes ago, John Wright said:

You’re missing the point. 

Wales, Scotland and NI can’t hold an indyref without ( in effect ) the prior agreement of England.

The UK didn’t need EU agreement to hold the Brexit referendum.

UK therefore, at all times, retained sovereignty in the black & white terms you view it.

I give you credit for being far from stupid, so the only possibility remaining is that you espouse this mantra disingenuously while understanding fully that the only way to assert full sovereignty within the EU is to invoke Article 50 and withdraw.

[woolley]

5 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

And still you cannot see that the UK in itself is a pooling of sovereignty between England, Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland.  The UK is even worse than the EU as there is no option for a single country to leave unless it can get a motion passed through Westminster which is controlled by the MP's of England in any majority vote. 

Sovereignty cannot be pooled. There is no majority in the populations of any of the constituent countries of the UK for independence and the establishment of their own sovereignty. They each (other than England) have devolved assemblies which could express such a will and, if they did so, it's difficult to see how it could be resisted for long. It would come to pass fairly soon. In 2022, following the Supreme Court ruling denying Sturgeon permission to legislate for an immediate referendum without UK agreement, she asserted that the next general election would demonstrate the will of the Scottish people. Her prediction didn't age well.

You seem to be obsessing on the countries making up the UK to further an entirely spurious point about the UK's withdrawal from the EU.

Edited July 16 by woolley

[Albert Tatlock]

4 minutes ago, woolley said:

Sovereignty cannot be pooled. There is no majority in the populations of any of the constituent countries of the UK for independence and the establishment of their own sovereignty. They each (other than England) have devolved assemblies which could express such a will and, if they did so, it's difficult to see how it could be resisted for long. It would come to pass.

You seem to be obsessing on the countries making up the UK to further an entirely spurious point about the UK's withdrawal from the EU.

None of it makes a real difference to Joe Public. Despite what you vote for, the government always gets in, and you have to pay more and more everytime.

Live your life for you and your family....and don't have a heart attack arguing about semantics that you have no real influence over.

It's all bollocks really.

[woolley]

Just now, Albert Tatlock said:

None of it makes a real difference to Joe Public. Despite what you vote for, the government always gets in, and you have to pay more and more everytime.

Live your life for you and your family....and don't have a heart attack arguing about semantics that you have no real influence over.

It's all bollocks really.

Indeed. I do have my own mantra for life that there is no point in worrying about stuff you can't change. It only brings you down.

 

[woolley]

On 7/14/2024 at 8:14 PM, John Wright said:

I’m sure that the Reform MP’s will have as much disdain for attending Westminster as they did for Brussels and Strasbourg. They’ll turn up for big set pieces where they can say something outrageous to garner publicity.

I suppose time will tell.

[The Voice of Reason]

On 7/14/2024 at 8:14 PM, John Wright said:

I’m sure that the Reform MP’s will have as much disdain for attending Westminster as they did for Brussels and Strasbourg. They’ll turn up for big set pieces where they can say something outrageous to garner publicity.

What like the Greens or something. Or Sinn Fein who don’t turn up at all?

Or the members of the House of Lords who just turn up for however long to pick up their attendance allowance? Plenty of MPs are missing during the day. Just turn on BBC Parliament on your television to see how often the House  of Commons is more or less empty.

What is “ something outrageous “? Those Reform MP’s who were democratically elected blsaying something outrageous in your eyes ( or ears).

They are not my cup of tea but they were fairly and squarely elected under democratic rules. 
As Brexit was enacted under democratic rules. 
You seem to have a problem with democracy

[manxman1980]

9 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

What like the Greens or something. Or Sinn Fein who don’t turn up at all?

We all know why Sinn Fein don't take up their seats.  They won't swear allegiance to the Monarch. 

Funnily enough they are also in favour of the reunification of Ireland which would require the agreement of Westminster...

9 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

What is “ something outrageous “? Those Reform MP’s who were democratically elected blsaying something outrageous in your eyes ( or ears).

Farage used his first "speech" in the House of Commons to moan about John Bercow who hasn’t been an MP for a number of years just to raise the ghost of Brexit.

Expect lots of nonsense around immigration, the UK being an "Islamic state" and other populist nonsense. 

And yes I know the Islamic state was J D Vance but Farage has spent an awful lot of time in the orbit of Trump and the Republican party and I rather suspect that he was behind that comment one way or another. 

9 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

They are not my cup of tea but they were fairly and squarely elected under democratic rules. 
As Brexit was enacted under democratic rules. 
You seem to have a problem with democracy

Reform UK seem to be exactly your cup of tea...  

[The Voice of Reason]

1 hour ago, manxman1980 said:

Reform UK seem to be exactly your cup of tea...  

Well they most certainly aren’t!

[manxman1980]

52 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Well they most certainly aren’t!

Are you sure?  It is after all run by His Excellency, The Right Honourable 'Sir' Nigel Farage, Defender of British Sovereignty, Herald of Independence, Champion of the People's Wil, Grand Commander of the Patriotic Vanguard and Sentinel of National Integrity (and not at all a conniving, opportunistic toad).

[The Voice of Reason]

6 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

Are you sure?  It is after all run by His Excellency, The Right Honourable 'Sir' Nigel Farage, Defender of British Sovereignty, Herald of Independence, Champion of the People's Wil, Grand Commander of the Patriotic Vanguard and Sentinel of National Integrity (and not at all a conniving, opportunistic toad).

I’m absolutely sure.

[P.K.]

56 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

I’m absolutely sure.

But Reform UK style themselves as "The Brexit Party"

You know, your soulmates...

[manxman1980]

On 7/16/2024 at 6:47 PM, woolley said:

Sovereignty cannot be pooled. There is no majority in the populations of any of the constituent countries of the UK for independence and the establishment of their own sovereignty. They each (other than England) have devolved assemblies which could express such a will and, if they did so, it's difficult to see how it could be resisted for long.

Did you miss that the SNP were in a pro independence coalition with the Scottish Greens in Holyrood and were calling for a further independence referendum?

The SNP were up until the recent election the third biggest Party in Westminster.

Despite all that they never managed to get another referendum despite the clear message from the Scottish voters.

That now seems to have passed because of the controversy the SNP have since found themselves I'm and what I expect was a decision by Scottish Voters to punish the Tory party and give Labour a route to victory. 

[The Voice of Reason]

2 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

Did you miss that the SNP were in a pro independence coalition with the Scottish Greens in Holyrood and were calling for a further independence referendum?

The SNP were up until the recent election the third biggest Party in Westminster.

Despite all that they never managed to get another referendum despite the clear message from the Scottish voters.

That now seems to have passed because of the controversy the SNP have since found themselves I'm and what I expect was a decision by Scottish Voters to punish the Tory party and give Labour a route to victory. 

The SNP will keep calling for another independence referendum after each one they lose.

But it doesn’t work like that. Common sense tells you that an appropriate interval should be had between referendums. And I write this as one who has no desire to keep Scotland in the Union should they decide to leave. It’s their decision but you can’t hold an independence for Scotland referendum every couple of years, any more that you could have done for a Brexit referendum.

I am  sure if there were another one held tomorrow they would lose that also.

Bit of a side issue but I do believe the SNP lost votes, not particularly to punish the Tory party but because of them espousing the gender issue nonsense ( and of course the alleged misuse or misappropriating of party funds)

[The Voice of Reason]

11 hours ago, P.K. said:

But Reform UK style themselves as "The Brexit Party"

You know, your soulmates...

They are not my soulmates at all. I find their position on immigration utterly reprehensible.

[woolley]

1 hour ago, manxman1980 said:

Did you miss that the SNP were in a pro independence coalition with the Scottish Greens in Holyrood and were calling for a further independence referendum?

The SNP were up until the recent election the third biggest Party in Westminster.

Despite all that they never managed to get another referendum despite the clear message from the Scottish voters.

That now seems to have passed because of the controversy the SNP have since found themselves I'm and what I expect was a decision by Scottish Voters to punish the Tory party and give Labour a route to victory. 

I didn't miss it at all. First of all, Scotland is over-represented in the Westminster Parliament to begin with. Secondly, Scottish voters did not need to vote Labour to punish the Tories because the certainty of a Labour landslide has been patently obvious for over a year based on votes from England alone. It's a red herring. If Scots were minded to vote nationalist they would have done so. They didn't. Unionist parties won 48 Scottish seats to the Nats 9 - hardly a platform to justify all of their noise.

There was a vote as recently as 2014, and the SNP didn't think the EU was an issue then. Independence was far more important to them than EU membership, but now, for their own convenience, EU membership is suddenly everything apparently. They are opportunists. You cannot expect the UK government to tolerate a constant state of "neverendum" flux because (EU style) the SNP want to keep holding votes every few years until the electorate get the right answer. After the Supreme Court ruling in 2022, Sturgeon spoke words to the effect that the next UK election would be a de facto referendum on independence. If that is the case, she lost big time.

I stand by my original point. There is an assembly in Edinburgh around which views coalesce. If that power base demanded independence over a sustained period, and by that I mean maybe a generation, as was conceded as reasonable even by Salmond after the 2014 Indyref, then I am sure it would not be denied because the stance would become untenable.

For my own part, if there is the groundswell at that time I would mandate their vote on that schedule, say 2030, and see what comes out of it. The next elections for MSPs will be very interesting.