manxman1980 Posted August 31 Share Posted August 31 9 hours ago, woolley said: Me too. Provided it's negotiated for mutual benefit and no preconditions dictated by either side. No, you mean that there are no preconditions from the EU. You are perfectly happy with the UK having preconditions such as not being expected to comply with EU standards. Unfortunately, the EU as a collective, hold most of the good cards. The UK is in a fairly weak position so I imagine that the EU will take a robust stance in any formal negotiations. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted August 31 Share Posted August 31 54 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: No, you mean that there are no preconditions from the EU. You are perfectly happy with the UK having preconditions such as not being expected to comply with EU standards. Er, wouldn’t having to comply with EU standards be a precondition emanating from the EU? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted August 31 Share Posted August 31 1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said: Er, wouldn’t having to comply with EU standards be a precondition emanating from the EU? Yes. But Brexiteers seem to think that the EU are going to be willing to waive those standards for the UK. I think the best we can hope for at the moment is better cooperation on immigration, security and on cross European bodies like Eurasmus and Euratom. Trade is going to be a problem if the UK/Brexiteers insist that the UK be free of EU standards for exports. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted August 31 Share Posted August 31 7 hours ago, manxman1980 said: Yes. But Brexiteers seem to think that the EU are going to be willing to waive those standards for the UK. I think the best we can hope for at the moment is better cooperation on immigration, security and on cross European bodies like Eurasmus and Euratom. Trade is going to be a problem if the UK/Brexiteers insist that the UK be free of EU standards for exports. It seems to be a bit of a one way street for you and your friend LC. The UK has its own standards which usually meet , if not exceed,those of the EU. Chlorinated chicken red herring apart. For example we don’t allow bulls to be slaughtered in a ring as some sort of entertainment spectacle. Are those the sort of standards of which you speak? We don’t need the EU to tell us what is right and what is wrong. We are more than capable of deciding for ourselves taking into account our own particular circumstances, which naturally do not always align with those of 27 other countries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted August 31 Share Posted August 31 53 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: It seems to be a bit of a one way street for you and your friend LC. The UK has its own standards which usually meet , if not exceed,those of the EU. Chlorinated chicken red herring apart. Yes, I agree but that is in part due to the fact that the UK hasn't changed standards significantly since leaving the EU. There are some exceptions which were a result of trade agreements with othe countries such as Australia. It also rather undermines the argument that Brussels was in some way responsible for red tape pre-brexit. As you say in many cases it was actually the UK Government who was responsible for it. 53 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: For example we don’t allow bulls to be slaughtered in a ring as some sort of entertainment spectacle. Are those the sort of standards of which you speak? As far as I am aware you are referring to Spain. One nation who have their own laws whilst being inside the EU. Do I agree with Bull Fighting? No. Absolutely not but Spain has chosen to allow it. Ironically you highlighting this somewhat undermines your sovereignty argument. Clearly Spain has the ability to create its own laws whilst inside the EU and hasn't been told to ban Bull Fighting by the EU. 53 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: Well don’t need the EU to tell us what is right and what is wrong. We are more than capable of deciding for ourselves taking into account our own particular circumstances, which naturally do not always align with those of 27 other countries. Yes, just like Spain in the example above. If the UK ever wants anything approaching free trade with the EU then compromises will have to be made. As I said earlier the EU as a collective really holds all the cards when compared to the UK. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted September 1 Share Posted September 1 15 hours ago, manxman1980 said: If the UK ever wants anything approaching free trade with the EU then compromises will have to be made. As I said earlier the EU as a collective really holds all the cards when compared to the UK. Correct. It means surrendering some of your "sovrinty" as you have to do in every trade deal you sign up to... Bottom line is to deliberately make it more complicated, more difficult, more time consuming and thus more expensive to trade with your biggest trading partner that sits right on your doorstep can only be a really stupid thing to do. Unless, of course, you're blinded by xenophobia or paranoid about the future... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted September 1 Share Posted September 1 16 hours ago, manxman1980 said: Yes, I agree but that is in part due to the fact that the UK hasn't changed standards significantly since leaving the EU. There are some exceptions which were a result of trade agreements with othe countries such as Australia. It also rather undermines the argument that Brussels was in some way responsible for red tape pre-brexit. As you say in many cases it was actually the UK Government who was responsible for it. As far as I am aware you are referring to Spain. One nation who have their own laws whilst being inside the EU. Do I agree with Bull Fighting? No. Absolutely not but Spain has chosen to allow it. Ironically you highlighting this somewhat undermines your sovereignty argument. Clearly Spain has the ability to create its own laws whilst inside the EU and hasn't been told to ban Bull Fighting by the EU. Yes, just like Spain in the example above. If the UK ever wants anything approaching free trade with the EU then compromises will have to be made. As I said earlier the EU as a collective really holds all the cards when compared to the UK. Of course there are areas where the EU does not (currently) legislate, so yes, member states act intra vires on such matters. Beyond those matters EU Law is supreme, as has been pointed out ad nauseam. You write some incredible stuff about sovereignty and everything else concerning the EU. The UK already has a comprehensive free trade agreement with the EU, incidentally. This is not what the current discussions are about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted September 1 Share Posted September 1 3 hours ago, woolley said: Of course there are areas where the EU does not (currently) legislate, so yes, member states act intra vires on such matters. Beyond those matters EU Law is supreme, as has been pointed out ad nauseam. You write some incredible stuff about sovereignty and everything else concerning the EU. The UK already has a comprehensive free trade agreement with the EU, incidentally. This is not what the current discussions are about. If you read back you would see that I am well aware that the current discussions are not about trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted September 1 Share Posted September 1 4 hours ago, P.K. said: Correct. It means surrendering some of your "sovrinty" as you have to do in every trade deal you sign up to... Why do you spell sovereignty as “sovrinty” ? It looks odd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted September 1 Share Posted September 1 33 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: Why do you spell sovereignty as “sovrinty” ? It looks odd. He is odd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted September 1 Share Posted September 1 1 hour ago, manxman1980 said: If you read back you would see that I am well aware that the current discussions are not about trade. Perhaps, but the post I answered includes the following: If the UK ever wants anything approaching free trade with the EU then compromises will have to be made. As I said earlier the EU as a collective really holds all the cards when compared to the UK. The UK has a comprehensive free trade agreement with the EU. Probably the most comprehensive one that the EU has with anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted September 1 Share Posted September 1 32 minutes ago, woolley said: He is odd. I'm Manx... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted September 1 Share Posted September 1 4 minutes ago, P.K. said: I'm Manx... You're using that as some "get out of jail" card? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecklessAbandon Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 On 8/31/2024 at 6:43 PM, The Voice of Reason said: For example we don’t allow bulls to be slaughtered in a ring as some sort of entertainment spectacle. Are those the sort of standards of which you speak? I did chortle at the irony of a Brexiteer using an example of a EU member nation exercising its own sovereignty while being an EU member as a reason we shouldn't be in the EU to retain our "sovereignty". Delicious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecklessAbandon Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 On 9/1/2024 at 12:10 PM, woolley said: Beyond those matters EU Law is supreme, as has been pointed out ad nauseam. And has been pointed out ad nauseam, it is only supreme except when it isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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