Brexit Penny Dropping?

[woolley]

2 hours ago, RecklessAbandon said:

"Article 307 of the EU Treaty, which relieves Member States of the obligation to ensure the primacy of EU law in certain circumstances."

As I have said many times "Except when it isn't"

The instances of "except when it isn't" are in policy areas where legislative control has not been ceded to the EU (yet), so on those matters, such as bullfighting (as has been mentioned), member states still legislate for themselves. However, because sovereignty is not divisible, they cannot claim to be sovereign while their hands are tied on a wide range of responsibilities which have been abdicated in favour of measures passed and imposed by a senior legislature beyond their borders. QMV continues to expand, although I note that a number of states are getting jittery about Schengen lately, and so they should.

2 minutes ago, RecklessAbandon said:

Says the person who thinks Brexit was about Sovereignty.

Fundamentally it was, but not merely as an end in itself. You need to understand that many things flow from having sovereignty. I'm not against free trade, by the way. Far from it, but I don't understand why we have to build a pan-continental body with all of the trappings of statehood to achieve it. Other trading blocs seem to function perfectly well without all of these bells and whistles.

[P.K.]

4 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

OK 

I will try and make it simple for you by way of an analogy.

If you want to go out for a meal then you have to go to the restaurant that I tell you to and no other. You have no choice, no self determination, because I am supreme.

However if you want to merely go to the pub for a lemonade or whatever, you can go to one of your own choosing. I have no interest at this time in pub culture and interfering with your free will in this respect . Thus I will allow you to visit whichever you choose.

However at a later date I may change my mind and decide that I will determine the only pub that you are allowed to visit because I have that power. My choice overrides yours because I am supreme

What a waste of bandwidth!

[P.K.]

1 hour ago, woolley said:

Fundamentally it was, but not merely as an end in itself. You need to understand that many things flow from having sovereignty. I'm not against free trade, by the way. Far from it, but I don't understand why we have to build a pan-continental body with all of the trappings of statehood to achieve it. Other trading blocs seem to function perfectly well without all of these bells and whistles.

But fundamentally "sovereignty" was nothing like as important as "the economy" and "immigration" (with it's darker, unspoken side) to brexit voters.

So why keep plugging the tired, well-worn much hakneyed non-runner that "sovrinty" actually is...?

[The Voice of Reason]

3 hours ago, RecklessAbandon said:

Says the person who thinks Brexit was about Sovereignty.

Far from the only one. 

 

[The Voice of Reason]

1 hour ago, P.K. said:

But fundamentally "sovereignty" was nothing like as important as "the economy" and "immigration" (with it's darker, unspoken side) to brexit voters.

So why keep plugging the tired, well-worn much hakneyed non-runner that "sovrinty" actually is...?

Sovereignty enables you to make your own  economic decisions and yes decisions about “ immigration “ ( No unspoken dark side, the UK has always been welcoming,  much as you would like to portray Brexit supporters as racist scum)

It’s all linked. 

Apparently the EU motto is “ United in diversity”.  Well actions speak louder than words ( “ Ever closer union” , par example.)

 

[P.K.]

18 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Sovereignty enables you to make your own  economic decisions and yes decisions about “ immigration “ ( No unspoken dark side, the UK has always been welcoming,  much as you would like to portray Brexit supporters as racist scum)

It’s all linked. 

Apparently the EU motto is “ United in diversity”.  Well actions speak louder than words ( “ Ever closer union” , par example.)

Ah yes, the "ever closer union" line trotted out time after time by brexiteers to try and justify their totally stupid and completely unnecessary brexit.

And it is stupid and uneccessary because the UK should have stayed a member with all it's advantages until such a time that the EU did actually try to step over a UK red line. That would then be the time to play the Article 50 card. Not while we had the best deal in the best trading bloc on the planet. What a bunch of bloody fools we must all look.

But oh no. Instead we had to go early due to the UK right wing press in thrall to the agenda of the owner, which is to say pretty much all of it, coupled with the personal ambitions of Messers Cameron, Farage, Gove, Johnson, Francois, Rees-Mogg, Davis, Fox and other absolutely awful people too numerous to mention...

[The Voice of Reason]

For goodness sake your interminable whining about the right wing press being “in thrall to the agenda of the owner, which is say pretty much all of it’, a line you must have used at least a dozen times in this debate, gets a bit tiresome.

Yes we have a press which encompasses both left and right wing views. Would you rather have a monopoly with the Guardian being the only paper on the newsstands?
 

The EU stepped over the UK red line again and again,  which begat the long overdue referendum resulting in a majority vote to leave the EU.

Far from looking like a bunch of bloody fools, the UK looks like a country that said “ enough is enough we are out of here” .
We are capable of governing ourselves we don’t need Brussels or Strasbourg to do it for us. But we are happy to cooperate on areas of mutual benefit or interest.

[RecklessAbandon]

11 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Far from looking like a bunch of bloody fools, the UK looks like a country that said “ enough is enough we are out of here” .

Not even close.

[P.K.]

Difficult to know where to start with this nonsense. The beginning I suppose:

17 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

For goodness sake your interminable whining about the right wing press being “in thrall to the agenda of the owner, which is say pretty much all of it’, a line you must have used at least a dozen times in this debate, gets a bit tiresome.

Yes we have a press which encompasses both left and right wing views. Would you rather have a monopoly with the Guardian being the only paper on the newsstands?

Nice to see you're finally getting the message that the UK is very badly served in terms of newspapers. Especially the right wing rubbish like the Daily Mail, the Express, the Sun and the Telegraph. You would think that they owe it to their readership to tell the truth or at least something resembling it. Especially as they have a strong readership base and can sway public opinion. But alas no.

Here is a classic case:

This is the UK right wing press response to Badenoch signing a trade deal with the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP). Looks wonderful doesn't it? Unfortunately it's all lies. The "£12 TRILLION" has nothing to do with trade. It's just the GDP's of the members added together and it actually includes that not only of Japan with whom the UK already has a trade deal but the UK's GDP as well! According to the OBR the deal will add just 0.04% to GDP in the “long run”, which it defines as after 15 years of membership. So despite the efforts of the Mail it's not going to "Turbo Charge" anything in a gazillion years.

It's all designed to fool their cerebrally challenged readership into thinking that their precious brexit is going swimmingly when the reality is totally different. It works too. So the sort of press I would like is one that doesn't sway public opinion with lie after lie and gets away with it...

Just a reminder of some of the things we lost with brexit:

1. No barriers to trade with the world's largest trading bloc. (Bristol, Berlin, Barcelona all equally accessible.)
 
2. Free trade deals with 70+ countries, including Japan, Canada, South Korea and Mercosur.

3. Frictionless borders allowing the just-in-time manufacturing that underpins millions of jobs in auto, aerospace etc.
 
4. Open borders between NI and Ireland, and NI and GB. No customs or paperwork.

5. Support for the Good Friday Agreement and the Irish peace process. EU PEACE funding for NI.

6. A stronger united front against a resurgent Russia, and other threats.
 
7 Freedom for UK citizens to travel, work, study, or retire anywhere in the EU.

8. Freedom for EU citizens to travel, work, study, or retire in the UK.

9. Participation in the EU Single Energy Market for a more resilient energy supply.
 
10 Horizon Europe programme for scientific and academic collaboration. Access to grants and knowledge pooling.

11. Collaborative space exploration, and participation in Galileo GPS satellite.

12. Driving licenses valid across the EU. No permits or insurance green cards needed. 

13. Easy and cheap travel with pets using multi-year pet passports.

14. Generous fixed compensation for flight delays and cancellations based on EU passenger rights.

15. European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) scheme, covering pre-existing medical conditions and maternity care.
 
16. EU-wide roaming at home rates. No carrier surcharges.

17. Access to home content on streaming services anywhere in the EU.

18. Participation in Erasmus+ student exchange programme with 4000+ universities in 31 countries.

19. Study in EU universities at cheaper local rates.
 
20. Enhanced consumer protections, including on cross-border shopping.

21. Simplified VAT filing for EU sales.

22. Cross-border tax collaboration to hold big firms like Amazon and Facebook accountable.

23. European Social Fund training courses for the unemployed.
 
24. Disaster relief funding, e.g. 60 million euro for UK floods in 2017.

25. Access to the ECJ as a court of last resort.

26. Significant environmental protections, as a floor not a ceiling.

27. Quicker access to safe/new medicines thanks to a one-stop pan-EU testing regime.
 
28. A single system of chemical regulation (REACH) governing chemical safety.

29. Cooperation on security issues and access to shared crime and terrorism databases.

30. Participation in European arrest warrant for speedy capture and extradition of criminals.
 
31. Participation in EURATOM programme for vital medical isotopes.

32. Financial support for neglected rural areas.

33. Better food labelling regulations, including country of origin of primary ingredients.

34. EU funding to support British film, theatre and music.
 
35. Free movement for musicians, bands, artists etc. and full access to the flourishing European culture scene.

36. Participation in European Capital of Culture programme that previously boosted cities like Glasgow and Liverpool.
 
37. Ability for service providers to offer services across EU on same basis as UK.

38. EU citizenship with additional rights and protections in parallel with UK citizenship.

39. No VAT or duty on goods imported from EU (no surprises on online purchases).
 
40. Venture capital funding and access to startup loans.

41. Legal protection of minority languages (e.g. Welsh).

42. Mutual recognition of academic and professional qualifications across EU.

43. EU-wide protection of foods of geographic origin (e.g. Melton Mowbray pork pies). 

44. No surcharges on credit card and debit card transactions (illegal in EU).

45. EU structural funding (e.g. £2 billion for Liverpool regeneration) with matched funds.

46. Support for democracy in post-Communist countries.
 
47. A bigger presence on the world stage to counter the dominance of the USA and China.

48. Products made or grown in the UK can be sold in 30+ countries without red tape.

49. Strong food hygiene standards, including bans on chlorinated chicken, hormone beef, GM crops.
 
50. Objective 1 funding for deprived areas and regions.

51. Financial passporting for firms in the City of London to service EU clients.

52. 14-day cooling off period on new timeshare agreements.

53. Minimum 2-year warranty period against faulty goods.
 
54. Consular protection from any EU embassy or consulate outside the EU (if there's no UK embassy).

55. Protection against discriminatory treatment when working in other EU countries.

56. Secure baseline of worker protections, including limits on hours, maternity leave etc.
 
57. Minimum of 4 weeks of paid leave a year.

58. Right to land fish in any EU port, and an easy process for declaring catches.

59. Access to a willing seasonal workforce to pick our fruit and vegetables.

60. Guaranteed supply of medicines (30+ million packs a month from EU).
 
61. Major say in running of the EU, with British MEPs and judges, and the right to propose and amend laws.

62. Say in setting the EU budget, priorities and focus.

63. More influence on environmental issues, since EU law governs 27 countries.
 
64. Cleaner air, backed by the EU Air Quality Directive. (EU can sue UK for non-compliance.)

65. Strong pan-EU IP protection, including participation in forthcoming unified patent system.

66. Among highest toy safety standards in the world.

67. Protection of 500 bird species.
 
68. Cleaner beaches, with stronger penalties for sewage discharges than the post-Brexit system.

69. Pan-EU regulators (food, chemicals etc.) that offer simplified testing regimes for all EU countries.

70. Participation in EU pandemic Early Warning and Response system (EWRS)
 
71. Right to vote and stand in local and European elections in any EU country.

72. Right to communicate with EU institutions in any of 24 official languages.

73. Right to petition the European Parliament on any matter within EU’s fields of activity.
 
74. Support for people with disabilities, including the European Accessibility Act and EU parking card.

75. Right to purchase services online from anywhere in EU at the same price as locals.

76. Bring home anything bought in another EU country without a customs declaration.
 
77. Right to cancel and return any product bought outside of a shop within 14 days.

78. Strong data protection laws such as GDPR, protecting personal data in any format.

79. Right to know what personal data a firm holds on you within a month.

80. Strong right to be forgotten.
 
81. Banks must charge same for euro payments across EU as for equivalent national transactions.

82. Insurance firms can sell products across the EU without being established in every country.

83. Ability to register .eu domain names.
 
84. Enhanced human rights protection through the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union.

85. Broadcasters can obtain a single broadcasting licence valid across the whole of the EU.

86. Regulation and reporting of CO2 emissions in new vans and lorries.
 
88. DiscoverEU passes for free travel by train for 18-year-olds to explore Europe. (These also unlock a range of discounts.)

89. European Solidarity Corps funded opportunities for young people to volunteer and work across Europe.
 
90. European Voluntary Service projects for short-term or long-term volunteering abroad for young people aged 18-30.

91. Long-term loans from the European Investment Bank (EIB) for projects that align with EU goals.
 
92. Creative Europe programme participation for the cultural and creative sectors, and the promotion of cultural diversity.

93. Access to the Connecting Europe Facility (CEF) which supports investment in trans-European networks in the transport, energy and digital sectors. 

94. Participation in the European Citizens' Initiative, allowing citizens to propose new measures directly to the European Commission, subject to accumulating a million signatures.

95. Participation in the CE mark conformity programme. 

96. Derogation from the ETIAS visa waiver system, and the biometric EES Entry Exit System, both expected to come online in 2024.
 

17 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

The EU stepped over the UK red line again and again,  which begat the long overdue referendum resulting in a majority vote to leave the EU. Far from looking like a bunch of bloody fools, the UK looks like a country that said “ enough is enough we are out of here” .

What "red lines" were those? I'm not aware of any!

If brexit is so wonderful why is it after eight years no other entity has left and there are still those wanting to join? We look like a bunch of clowns for deliberately going from a top player with the best deal in the best trading bloc on the planet straight down to a "Third Country" and desperate for trade deals. As evidenced by the pathetic efforts of Liz Truss and Kemi Badenoch FFS!

17 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

We are capable of governing ourselves we don’t need Brussels or Strasbourg to do it for us.

Now you really are stretching it. We have just recently got rid of the worst UK government in living memory and hopefully for ever. Let's have a quick look at their legacy:

Public Services have been hollowed out due to central funding being withdrawn from councils.

Owning your own home used to be a rite of passage. But for many that has now become cloud cuckoo land. Plus the number of homes built falls well below the need.

Since 2010 the gap between rich and poor has grown larger which is reflected in the housing market.

We currently have 4.3 million children living in poverty. That's 30% of the total. It's a national disgrace for what was the world's fifth largest economy that has now dropped to sixth.

Our schools are falling down.

Our much-vaunted NHS is on it's knees with a record 7.6 million people on waiting lists for hospital treatment. Last year of those on the waiting list more than 120,000 passed away.

Needless to say public satisfaction with the NHS has gone from an all time high in 2009 to an all time low and it's still headed downwards (sorry).

Record number of homeless living on our streets.

Hardly surprisingly welfare spending is now lower than our peer group. The top five EU countries are France, Finland, Belgium, Denmark and Italy with 29% of GDP whereas the UK now spends 20%.

Got rid of 20,000 Police Officers.

Another of Thatcher's so-called "privatisations" went to shit. Literally. In our rivers. Same old same old. Just add "profit" into the equation and money gets siphoned off out of the business and thus re-investment falls with inevitable results.

Knife crime has burgeoned.

Net migration is at an all time high. According to the ONS last year immigrants less emigrants was 685,000. This is the highest number since 2010 and way way way above pre-brexit levels.

Cost of living crisis.

Our prisons are full. Meaning we have to release prisoners early or the justice system will grind to a halt. One of the reasons for this is the growing number of prisoners on remand awaiting a court appearance. They are waiting longer because from 2010 to 2019 over half the UK's courts were closed due to austerity indicating a very typical total lack of any joined-up thinking. Only investment will solve this one.

Race riots on our streets.

There is one UK success story though which is an expanding sector. Food Banks. In 2010 they had just 40,000 customers. In 2024 that had risen to an astonishing 3,120,000. Well done everyone involved!

ETA: my 100 brexit losses have been clipped off at 96!

Edited September 12 by P.K.

[Nom de plume]

Where did the £350million 'A WEEK' the country was going to save by leaving the EU go?

Why was rejoining not even discussed during 2024 electioneering?

They are all a gang of lying c&8£s and charlatans.

[Non-Believer]

 

Edited September 12 by Non-Believer

[The Voice of Reason]

2 hours ago, Non-Believer said:

 

Not sure what that’s all about.

Post Brexit I’m still enjoying the products on the left particularly Kerrygold butter( and that on the right).

Is it supposed to imply that these products wouldn’t be available in the UK after Brexit?
 

If so it’s very silly ! 😀

Edited September 12 by The Voice of Reason
Addition of Kerrygold

[woolley]

8 hours ago, P.K. said:

Difficult to know where to start with this nonsense. The beginning I suppose:

Nice to see you're finally getting the message that the UK is very badly served in terms of newspapers. Especially the right wing rubbish like the Daily Mail, the Express, the Sun and the Telegraph. You would think that they owe it to their readership to tell the truth or at least something resembling it. Especially as they have a strong readership base and can sway public opinion. But alas no.

Here is a classic case:

This is the UK right wing press response to Badenoch signing a trade deal with the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP). Looks wonderful doesn't it? Unfortunately it's all lies. The "£12 TRILLION" has nothing to do with trade. It's just the GDP's of the members added together and it actually includes that not only of Japan with whom the UK already has a trade deal but the UK's GDP as well! According to the OBR the deal will add just 0.04% to GDP in the “long run”, which it defines as after 15 years of membership. So despite the efforts of the Mail it's not going to "Turbo Charge" anything in a gazillion years.

It's all designed to fool their cerebrally challenged readership into thinking that their precious brexit is going swimmingly when the reality is totally different. It works too. So the sort of press I would like is one that doesn't sway public opinion with lie after lie and gets away with it...

Just a reminder of some of the things we lost with brexit:

1. No barriers to trade with the world's largest trading bloc. (Bristol, Berlin, Barcelona all equally accessible.)
 
2. Free trade deals with 70+ countries, including Japan, Canada, South Korea and Mercosur.

3. Frictionless borders allowing the just-in-time manufacturing that underpins millions of jobs in auto, aerospace etc.
 
4. Open borders between NI and Ireland, and NI and GB. No customs or paperwork.

5. Support for the Good Friday Agreement and the Irish peace process. EU PEACE funding for NI.

6. A stronger united front against a resurgent Russia, and other threats.
 
7 Freedom for UK citizens to travel, work, study, or retire anywhere in the EU.

8. Freedom for EU citizens to travel, work, study, or retire in the UK.

9. Participation in the EU Single Energy Market for a more resilient energy supply.
 
10 Horizon Europe programme for scientific and academic collaboration. Access to grants and knowledge pooling.

11. Collaborative space exploration, and participation in Galileo GPS satellite.

12. Driving licenses valid across the EU. No permits or insurance green cards needed. 

13. Easy and cheap travel with pets using multi-year pet passports.

14. Generous fixed compensation for flight delays and cancellations based on EU passenger rights.

15. European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) scheme, covering pre-existing medical conditions and maternity care.
 
16. EU-wide roaming at home rates. No carrier surcharges.

17. Access to home content on streaming services anywhere in the EU.

18. Participation in Erasmus+ student exchange programme with 4000+ universities in 31 countries.

19. Study in EU universities at cheaper local rates.
 
20. Enhanced consumer protections, including on cross-border shopping.

21. Simplified VAT filing for EU sales.

22. Cross-border tax collaboration to hold big firms like Amazon and Facebook accountable.

23. European Social Fund training courses for the unemployed.
 
24. Disaster relief funding, e.g. 60 million euro for UK floods in 2017.

25. Access to the ECJ as a court of last resort.

26. Significant environmental protections, as a floor not a ceiling.

27. Quicker access to safe/new medicines thanks to a one-stop pan-EU testing regime.
 
28. A single system of chemical regulation (REACH) governing chemical safety.

29. Cooperation on security issues and access to shared crime and terrorism databases.

30. Participation in European arrest warrant for speedy capture and extradition of criminals.
 
31. Participation in EURATOM programme for vital medical isotopes.

32. Financial support for neglected rural areas.

33. Better food labelling regulations, including country of origin of primary ingredients.

34. EU funding to support British film, theatre and music.
 
35. Free movement for musicians, bands, artists etc. and full access to the flourishing European culture scene.

36. Participation in European Capital of Culture programme that previously boosted cities like Glasgow and Liverpool.
 
37. Ability for service providers to offer services across EU on same basis as UK.

38. EU citizenship with additional rights and protections in parallel with UK citizenship.

39. No VAT or duty on goods imported from EU (no surprises on online purchases).
 
40. Venture capital funding and access to startup loans.

41. Legal protection of minority languages (e.g. Welsh).

42. Mutual recognition of academic and professional qualifications across EU.

43. EU-wide protection of foods of geographic origin (e.g. Melton Mowbray pork pies). 

44. No surcharges on credit card and debit card transactions (illegal in EU).

45. EU structural funding (e.g. £2 billion for Liverpool regeneration) with matched funds.

46. Support for democracy in post-Communist countries.
 
47. A bigger presence on the world stage to counter the dominance of the USA and China.

48. Products made or grown in the UK can be sold in 30+ countries without red tape.

49. Strong food hygiene standards, including bans on chlorinated chicken, hormone beef, GM crops.
 
50. Objective 1 funding for deprived areas and regions.

51. Financial passporting for firms in the City of London to service EU clients.

52. 14-day cooling off period on new timeshare agreements.

53. Minimum 2-year warranty period against faulty goods.
 
54. Consular protection from any EU embassy or consulate outside the EU (if there's no UK embassy).

55. Protection against discriminatory treatment when working in other EU countries.

56. Secure baseline of worker protections, including limits on hours, maternity leave etc.
 
57. Minimum of 4 weeks of paid leave a year.

58. Right to land fish in any EU port, and an easy process for declaring catches.

59. Access to a willing seasonal workforce to pick our fruit and vegetables.

60. Guaranteed supply of medicines (30+ million packs a month from EU).
 
61. Major say in running of the EU, with British MEPs and judges, and the right to propose and amend laws.

62. Say in setting the EU budget, priorities and focus.

63. More influence on environmental issues, since EU law governs 27 countries.
 
64. Cleaner air, backed by the EU Air Quality Directive. (EU can sue UK for non-compliance.)

65. Strong pan-EU IP protection, including participation in forthcoming unified patent system.

66. Among highest toy safety standards in the world.

67. Protection of 500 bird species.
 
68. Cleaner beaches, with stronger penalties for sewage discharges than the post-Brexit system.

69. Pan-EU regulators (food, chemicals etc.) that offer simplified testing regimes for all EU countries.

70. Participation in EU pandemic Early Warning and Response system (EWRS)
 
71. Right to vote and stand in local and European elections in any EU country.

72. Right to communicate with EU institutions in any of 24 official languages.

73. Right to petition the European Parliament on any matter within EU’s fields of activity.
 
74. Support for people with disabilities, including the European Accessibility Act and EU parking card.

75. Right to purchase services online from anywhere in EU at the same price as locals.

76. Bring home anything bought in another EU country without a customs declaration.
 
77. Right to cancel and return any product bought outside of a shop within 14 days.

78. Strong data protection laws such as GDPR, protecting personal data in any format.

79. Right to know what personal data a firm holds on you within a month.

80. Strong right to be forgotten.
 
81. Banks must charge same for euro payments across EU as for equivalent national transactions.

82. Insurance firms can sell products across the EU without being established in every country.

83. Ability to register .eu domain names.
 
84. Enhanced human rights protection through the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union.

85. Broadcasters can obtain a single broadcasting licence valid across the whole of the EU.

86. Regulation and reporting of CO2 emissions in new vans and lorries.
 
88. DiscoverEU passes for free travel by train for 18-year-olds to explore Europe. (These also unlock a range of discounts.)

89. European Solidarity Corps funded opportunities for young people to volunteer and work across Europe.
 
90. European Voluntary Service projects for short-term or long-term volunteering abroad for young people aged 18-30.

91. Long-term loans from the European Investment Bank (EIB) for projects that align with EU goals.
 
92. Creative Europe programme participation for the cultural and creative sectors, and the promotion of cultural diversity.

93. Access to the Connecting Europe Facility (CEF) which supports investment in trans-European networks in the transport, energy and digital sectors. 

94. Participation in the European Citizens' Initiative, allowing citizens to propose new measures directly to the European Commission, subject to accumulating a million signatures.

95. Participation in the CE mark conformity programme. 

96. Derogation from the ETIAS visa waiver system, and the biometric EES Entry Exit System, both expected to come online in 2024.
 

What "red lines" were those? I'm not aware of any!

If brexit is so wonderful why is it after eight years no other entity has left and there are still those wanting to join? We look like a bunch of clowns for deliberately going from a top player with the best deal in the best trading bloc on the planet straight down to a "Third Country" and desperate for trade deals. As evidenced by the pathetic efforts of Liz Truss and Kemi Badenoch FFS!

Now you really are stretching it. We have just recently got rid of the worst UK government in living memory and hopefully for ever. Let's have a quick look at their legacy:

Public Services have been hollowed out due to central funding being withdrawn from councils.

Owning your own home used to be a rite of passage. But for many that has now become cloud cuckoo land. Plus the number of homes built falls well below the need.

Since 2010 the gap between rich and poor has grown larger which is reflected in the housing market.

We currently have 4.3 million children living in poverty. That's 30% of the total. It's a national disgrace for what was the world's fifth largest economy that has now dropped to sixth.

Our schools are falling down.

Our much-vaunted NHS is on it's knees with a record 7.6 million people on waiting lists for hospital treatment. Last year of those on the waiting list more than 120,000 passed away.

Needless to say public satisfaction with the NHS has gone from an all time high in 2009 to an all time low and it's still headed downwards (sorry).

Record number of homeless living on our streets.

Hardly surprisingly welfare spending is now lower than our peer group. The top five EU countries are France, Finland, Belgium, Denmark and Italy with 29% of GDP whereas the UK now spends 20%.

Got rid of 20,000 Police Officers.

Another of Thatcher's so-called "privatisations" went to shit. Literally. In our rivers. Same old same old. Just add "profit" into the equation and money gets siphoned off out of the business and thus re-investment falls with inevitable results.

Knife crime has burgeoned.

Net migration is at an all time high. According to the ONS last year immigrants less emigrants was 685,000. This is the highest number since 2010 and way way way above pre-brexit levels.

Cost of living crisis.

Our prisons are full. Meaning we have to release prisoners early or the justice system will grind to a halt. One of the reasons for this is the growing number of prisoners on remand awaiting a court appearance. They are waiting longer because from 2010 to 2019 over half the UK's courts were closed due to austerity indicating a very typical total lack of any joined-up thinking. Only investment will solve this one.

Race riots on our streets.

There is one UK success story though which is an expanding sector. Food Banks. In 2010 they had just 40,000 customers. In 2024 that had risen to an astonishing 3,120,000. Well done everyone involved!

ETA: my 100 brexit losses have been clipped off at 96!

 

On 9/11/2024 at 6:46 PM, P.K. said:

What a waste of bandwidth!

And most of it sod all to do with Brexit.

[P.K.]

2 hours ago, woolley said:

And most of it sod all to do with Brexit.

Oh really?

How did you miss the Mail and Express total lie sheets? Plus the 100 brexit "downers" - easily done I suppose...

I deliberately missed brexit out from the truly dreadful actions of the last 14 years of tory rule.

After all, everyone knows it's a crock of shit...

[manxman1980]

15 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Not sure what that’s all about.

Post Brexit I’m still enjoying the products on the left particularly Kerrygold butter( and that on the right).

Is it supposed to imply that these products wouldn’t be available in the UK after Brexit?
 

If so it’s very silly ! 😀

Ironically Baked Beans aren't even British.  They are produced by an American company who would happily move production to the EU if it represented value for money. 

As the UK is their biggest market, and as Brexit introduced trade barriers, it means they have left manufacturing in the UK.

They have, however,  sought to upgrade factories and remove people.  The one thing that the Heinz workforce in the UK has is a strong Union presence which has defended the workforce from what otherwise could be brutal American attitudes.