Brexit Penny Dropping?

[The Voice of Reason]

2 minutes ago, Lost Login said:

To an extent but you generally plan on the basis that your Government are not the ones trying to cause you issues.

Or not your fellow citizens taking part in a democratic referendum perhaps?

[Lost Login]

23 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

This certainly does not negate the rationale for the majority of UK voters wishing to leave the EU. ( that being to regain sovereignty) 

That is simply not true though. It was a minority of UK voters who voted to leave. It was only a small majority of those who actually voted. Whilst "sovereignty" depending how you wrap it up was the main driver, according to surveys, of those who voted leave as opposed to the economy was the driver who have voted remain, it probably does not account for over 50% of those who actually voted.

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/CSI-Brexit-4-People’s-Stated-Reasons-for-Voting-Leave.pdf   

https://www.kbc.com/en/economics/publications/voting-leave:-what-were-the-underlying-factors-behind-the-brexit-vote.html

One of the problems I have with the vote is that at the time those who were advocating vote leave had absolutely no idea who to address the border issue with Northern Ireland and now 5 years after the vote and over a year after Boris got "Brexit done" we don't appear to be much closer. 

I thought that would have been a pretty fundamental point 

 

[The Voice of Reason]

1 minute ago, Lost Login said:

That is simply not true though. It was a minority of UK voters who voted to leave. It was only a small majority of those who actually voted. 

 

Right 

You’re first sentence simply does not wash. It’s a minority of UK voters who vote for the party who wins in a UK general election. It’s democracy , you can only count the votes those who choose to vote.

Re your second sentence a small majority is a majority. Why on earth do anti Brexit people do not understand that?If they had won by a small majority would they highlight that?

This perfectly illustrates the naivety of those who can’t accept they lost.

[Lost Login]

21 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Or not your fellow citizens taking part in a democratic referendum perhaps?

Which can not apparently not be re run now we are all have a much more accurate picture of what the UK in the post Brexit world will look like.

Hitler's Nazi party won the largest share of the vote and the largest number of seats in the  1932 German Election. I presume that you don't argue that democratic election came to the right result and that everybody should have accepted the result and fallen in step with their beliefs and the way they subsequently behaved effectively going from a democracy to a dictatorship? 

[The Voice of Reason]

10 minutes ago, Lost Login said:

Which can not apparently not be re run now we are all have a much more accurate picture of what the UK in the post Brexit world will look like.

Hitler's Nazi party won the largest share of the vote and the largest number of seats in the  1932 German Election. I presume that you don't argue that democratic election came to the right result and that everybody should have accepted the result and fallen in step with their beliefs and the way they subsequently behaved effectively going from a democracy to a dictatorship? 

Why on earth should it be re run because you didn’t like the result  anymore than the Scottish independent referendum be re run because the SNP didn’t like the result?

If the German 1932 election was run along democratic lines then yes everyone should have accepted the result. Same for Mussolini’s fascist party in Italy I guess. 
 

Everyone abhors what happened subsequently. What do you suggest? 
Once Hitler started running out of control there should have been another election? Called by whom? Not sure he would have been up for it.

It is more than a little offensive to try to link a democratic decision in a referendum to the activities of the Nazi Party in Germany

Edited December 27, 2021 by The Voice of Reason

[Lost Login]

5 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Right 

You’re first sentence simply does not wash. It’s a minority of UK voters who vote for the party who wins in a UK general election. It’s democracy , you can only count the votes those who choose to vote.

Re your second sentence a small majority is a majority. Why on earth do anti Brexit people do not understand that?If they had won by a small majority would they highlight that?

This perfectly illustrates the naivety of those who can’t accept they lost.

I did not win or loose. I did not have a vote. Like it or not my first sentence was correct. There is a huge difference in there being a majority of all voters and a majority of those who actually voted. I did not indicate that made the result wrong or argue that you should count the votes of those who did not vote.

Those who set the rules for a particular election can if they wish count votes of those not voting. You are therefore incorrect in stating that you can only choose to "count the votes those who choose to vote." Whilst it did not apply to the EU referendum I am pretty sure that during my life time there were proposals in respect of past devolution votes in Wales and Scotland that those who did not vote counted as voting against and there have been plenty of proposals by Tory Government's that with regard to unions and workers that in ballots those who don't vote are treated as voting against. In past EU elections in the UK I believe there were elections were a straight majority was not sufficient. 

The 2016 EU referendum was lost. What I don't understand is why democracy was great for deciding on the matter at that point but now more information is known and Brexit has not been done nor does it look like it will in the near future with the NI issues, and certainly not in a form that will resemble the vision that was originally sold democracy can not cannot be allowed to decide if the right decision was reached. Heaven forbid that it might be that it many are not bothered about democracy only about the outcome. 

Through ancestors I can go and get a EU passport so live and work in an EU state if I wished so I take a fairly relaxed view. I do think we should care about the poorer parts of society and if they are worse off and struggle to put food etc on the table for their kids I think that is far more important than "sovereignty" I have no issue with those that take a different view provided they take steps to care for those who have been badly affected. We now live in a global society so yearning for the days of the British Empire seems like a very backward step.

When you look at the results of the EU referendum it seems very much the older generations were looking to times past with rose tinted glasses and the younger generations were looking forward. I am therefore fairy relaxed over Brexit as  whilst I never expect Brexit to be reversed in the next 10 or 20 years I fully expect that the UK will go back to being very closely aligned with EU trading partners again. The big difference being that the UK will not have a say in the rule making process. We are generally selfish and if we start to be hit in the pocket and fall behind others then I expect more will quickly care more about that than whether the EU court is the ultimate arbiter or whether equivalency rules are in place for trading.        

 If I had a vote I would have voted remain as I could understand what I was voting for in that. Leave just seemed to be a range of abstract promises. The result I wanted was what we got as if the result had been to leave there would have been continuing demands for more referendums and eventually one would result in a leave vote. When you blame the EU for much of your problems and promise a change will see the end of these the scales were always going to tip. Better to get it over and done with and after an interesting a period to see parties coming back together.

Finally I presume Brexit in the UK is not going that great as if it was why would Boris have to continue to lie about the benefits, e.g, vaccines in the UK, I accept that it could simply be out of force of habit. 

 

[Lost Login]

55 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Why on earth should it be re run because you didn’t like the result  anymore than the Scottish independent referendum be re run because the SNP didn’t like the result?

 

Why should the voters not have the opportunity to go to the polls again if it appears public opinion has changed. There is hypocrisy on both sides. Leave voters were saying it would not be the end of the matter if the vote was close pre voting day when they expected to loose and remain voters sating the opposite. 

I was in favour of the previous referendums re the EU as the Government of the day did not have a clear view on the matter. Cameron's Government did so there was no need for a referendum except to appease his own MPs. In the long term I think that it was probably the nest result for the UK because it has lanced the boil and over the next 10 or 20 years the UK and EU will start to align again as the downsides of trying to go it alone become clearer. You often don't understand what you have until it is lost. I think being a member of the EU falls into that heading.

[ManxTaxPayer]

 

[ManxTaxPayer]

At last, here's a huge Brexit win that we, as Britons, can all celebrate. The minimum percentage of British crew members that must be on board vessels is increasing from 50% to 70%. Fantastic news. 

Edited December 28, 2021 by ManxTaxPayer

[GreyWolf]

That’s a good start as far to many of the large fishing operators are using cheap foreign and at times basically slave labour on there boats as prosecution’s in the past have revealed.

[ManxTaxPayer]

1 hour ago, GreyWolf said:

That’s a good start 

A good start? It's a massive boost! 

[The Voice of Reason]

22 hours ago, Lost Login said:

Why should the voters not have the opportunity to go to the polls again if it appears public opinion has changed. 

“ If it appears public opinion has changed” 

Normally there is a dip in support for the governing party in the UK sometime during the five years it is elected for. 
If  a MORI poll, say,  in the middle of their term in office suggests public opinion is such that they would not be re elected at that moment in time should it be mandatory for a new General Election be called?

Its nonsense 

[ManxTaxPayer]

Here's another benefit. As promised by many prominent leavers, less red tape for hauliers who operate twixt UK and EU. Ha ha! Just kidding! It's more red tape! 

 

[The Voice of Reason]

19 minutes ago, ManxTaxPayer said:

Here's another benefit. As promised by many prominent leavers, less red tape for hauliers who operate twixt UK and EU. Ha ha! Just kidding! It's more red tape! 

 

Not being a haulier I don’t know what registering for the GVMS involves. It may well compensate  for a reduction in red tape by not being in the EU. Let me know the details

Edited December 28, 2021 by The Voice of Reason

[Lost Login]

1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said:

“ If it appears public opinion has changed” 

Normally there is a dip in support for the governing party in the UK sometime during the five years it is elected for. 
If  a MORI poll, say,  in the middle of their term in office suggests public opinion is such that they would not be re elected at that moment in time should it be mandatory for a new General Election be called?

Its nonsense 

So presumably your position is that the 2016 referendum was "nonsense" and should not have been held at the UK held a referendum in 1975 about the UK remaining a member of the European Community and 67% voted in favour?  Or is that different because you did not like the result in 1975 and in 2016 you did.

As I said I don't want the 2016 referendum to go to another vote etc as it unless it plays out and people can see the actual harm or benefits that arise from Brexit it will be hard to reach a balanced view as each side simply make unsubstantiated claims.

I think Scotland have much stronger case for a second independence referendum first as the facts have considerably changed since the 2014 referendum. Would the fact the Scotland have to cease to be part of the single market despite voting 62% voting in favour of remain change the equation?