Brexit Penny Dropping?

[ManxTaxPayer]

Britain faces summer of shortages on supermarket shelves. Because, err, Brexit. 

[The Voice of Reason]

16 hours ago, John Wright said:

Bet you aren’t half as keen on being fair by giving visa waiver free access to the UK and equal treatment by immigration officers to Syrians or Afghans, or Yemenis or Somalis, or Libyans, etc. you get the picture?

And you overlook the reason for the EU passport lane. It was reciprocal because we got, in at least as great numbers, the right to live, work, travel, retire, as they, through economic self interest that worked well.

We didn’t have to leave the EU, and even if we left we didn’t have to leave the EEA, or choose to become a third country outside the customs Union or single market. 

It was never in the wildest dreams of Farage or ERG to drop out so fast so far. It was to be a staged step by step approach. But after the referendum, and the unexpected win, caused at least in part by BoJo changing sides due to naked ambition, and the dithering of May, there was a hard right, hard Brexit, coup.

Yes I’m equally as keen on being fair to all nationalities. I’m afraid I don’t “get the picture” you are painting. Why would you discriminate like that?

”Yes in apartheid  South Africa they had whites and non whites queues for toilets, buses etc. I’m sure  you don’t think that similar passport queues are OK?

” Economic self interest that worked well” Well yes it may have served our own self interest but I would suggest our interest should be a bit broader than that, extending also to third world countries.

Per your third paragraph John, yes we did have to leave the EU  because it what people voted for. Only unless we ignored the result. It was not  a hard right coup. This is a fallacy perpetuated by Remainers determined  to portray leave voters as racists. As a left leaning person myself who would have voted leave I find this offensive. 
It should also be no surprise that politicians have naked ambition.It’s part of their make up.

Yes it was an unexpected win but that doesn’t make it any less valid howsoever caused. 

“To drop out so fast” It took many years. More than it should have.

TheUK is more than happy to participate in cross border investigations into terrorism, drug smuggling, that sort of criminal activity ( amongst other issues). You don’t need to be tied into some sort of European Superstate to co operate on such issues.

I am sorry to have to take issue with you as I have always regarded you as a fair minded person on this forum but I think you are wrong on this occasion 

Edited May 22, 2022 by The Voice of Reason

[ManxTaxPayer]

Disaster charity brought in to help with the Brexit induced chaos at Dover. Amazing.  

[ManxTaxPayer]

 

[John Wright]

On 5/22/2022 at 1:28 AM, The Voice of Reason said:

Yes I’m equally as keen on being fair to all nationalities. I’m afraid I don’t “get the picture” you are painting. Why would you discriminate like that?

”Yes in apartheid  South Africa they had whites and non whites queues for toilets, buses etc. I’m sure  you don’t think that similar passport queues are OK?

” Economic self interest that worked well” Well yes it may have served our own self interest but I would suggest our interest should be a bit broader than that, extending also to third world countries.

Per your third paragraph John, yes we did have to leave the EU  because it what people voted for. Only unless we ignored the result. It was not  a hard right coup. This is a fallacy perpetuated by Remainers determined  to portray leave voters as racists. As a left leaning person myself who would have voted leave I find this offensive. 
It should also be no surprise that politicians have naked ambition.It’s part of their make up.

Yes it was an unexpected win but that doesn’t make it any less valid howsoever caused. 

“To drop out so fast” It took many years. More than it should have.

TheUK is more than happy to participate in cross border investigations into terrorism, drug smuggling, that sort of criminal activity ( amongst other issues). You don’t need to be tied into some sort of European Superstate to co operate on such issues.

I am sorry to have to take issue with you as I have always regarded you as a fair minded person on this forum but I think you are wrong on this occasion 

You totally, and I believe deliberately skew things.

Immigration and visas and visa waiving is always discriminatory somewhere, unless you apply a free for all no restriction no visa system, or a restrict everyone system.

What we had in the EU and single market was a system which allowed our nearest neighbours, with whom we did most travel and trade, even before 1973, on a reciprocal basis to come, go, work, export, import, retire, without restriction. That makes sense.

No, we didn’t have to leave. And we didn’t have to leave on such disadvantageous terms so quickly. No one expected leaving to be so hard. Even Farage and JRM expected an orderly withdrawal over time. 

The referendum should never have been called. It was. It was mishandled. The leavers blatantly lied about the effect. It was a face saving effort by the Tories to stop their party falling apart and being in the wilderness.

Once lost the negotiations were mishandled. Once notice to leave had been given we should have stayed in single market and customs Union for 10 years, and disentangled much more slowly.

But most of the debate about freedom of movement and establishment and work was twisted to portray it as an immigration numbers thing, when we already had, a. the absolute power to control non EU migration, and, b. didn’t.

Just like we had the power to register EU migration, and entitlement to establish and return people looking for work if they didn’t find it, and not pay benefits. That was a wholly UK political and legislative failure.

Your point about cross border cooperation in criminal matters is well made, but of course UK HMG didn’t actually properly cooperate even in the EU structures.

And as for superstate, you’re having a laugh!

[The Voice of Reason]

5 hours ago, John Wright said:

You totally, and I believe deliberately skew things.

Immigration and visas and visa waiving is always discriminatory somewhere, unless you apply a free for all no restriction no visa system, or a restrict everyone system.

What we had in the EU and single market was a system which allowed our nearest neighbours, with whom we did most travel and trade, even before 1973, on a reciprocal basis to come, go, work, export, import, retire, without restriction. That makes sense.

No, we didn’t have to leave. And we didn’t have to leave on such disadvantageous terms so quickly. No one expected leaving to be so hard. Even Farage and JRM expected an orderly withdrawal over time. 

The referendum should never have been called. It was. It was mishandled. The leavers blatantly lied about the effect. It was a face saving effort by the Tories to stop their party falling apart and being in the wilderness.

Once lost the negotiations were mishandled. Once notice to leave had been given we should have stayed in single market and customs Union for 10 years, and disentangled much more slowly.

But most of the debate about freedom of movement and establishment and work was twisted to portray it as an immigration numbers thing, when we already had, a. the absolute power to control non EU migration, and, b. didn’t.

Just like we had the power to register EU migration, and entitlement to establish and return people looking for work if they didn’t find it, and not pay benefits. That was a wholly UK political and legislative failure.

Your point about cross border cooperation in criminal matters is well made, but of course UK HMG didn’t actually properly cooperate even in the EU structures.

And as for superstate, you’re having a laugh!

John

I don’t intend to address your posting point by point as I believe most issues raised are a matter of opinion and everyone has their own. It’s not a matter of deliberately skewing things, its having a different point of view.

However there is one curious thing I would like to raise.

Most Manx born people and those who have chosen to make here their home, would  be aghast at the idea of Westminster interfering any more here than it has already done. The idea  of the UK having increased influence on the Island ( quite rightly) is anathema to them I know this from conversations I have had with them.

I believe the number of residents here that think we should cede any more power to the UK is so small as to be irrelevant. I don’t think anybody would seriously argue with my belief.

Yet many, if not most of these very same people think that the UK should have remained in the EU whose mantra is “ ever closer union” which I think we can assume includes ever closer political union.

Why?

Surely what is good for the goose is good for the gander. 

Edited May 24, 2022 by The Voice of Reason

[Max Power]

So much for taking back control, gross immigration in 2021 was over 1,000,000 for the first time in history!

[ManxTaxPayer]

7 minutes ago, Max Power said:

So much for taking back control, gross immigration in 2021 was over 1,000,000 for the first time in history!

What nationalities does that million consist of? 

Edited May 27, 2022 by ManxTaxPayer

[Max Power]

22 minutes ago, ManxTaxPayer said:

What nationalities does that million consist of? 

I believe Chinese were the largest group at 120,000 and Nigerians the largest growth at 43,000. This is all visas granted, including study etc. I can't find a table to explain the rest of the nationalities, I'll keep looking. Likewise I'm not sure what net migration is either. 

[ManxTaxPayer]

1 minute ago, Max Power said:

 Nigerians the largest growth at 43,000. 

Lol, Brexiters won't like that. 

[ManxTaxPayer]

Here's a funny little fat fucker with a Brexit benefit. Not the first vid obvs. 

 

 

[The Voice of Reason]

1 hour ago, ManxTaxPayer said:

Here's a funny little fat fucker with a Brexit benefit. Not the first vid obvs. 

 

 

The “funny little fat fucker” is right.

Why shouldn’t the UK repeal legislation imposed on it by an organisation of which it is no longer a member? Makes perfect sense to me.

Its not like he is even arguing that the UK should not be allowed to use the measurements used in the EU but that there should be a choice. How can you argue against that?

Being of an older generation I would welcome the opportunity to say, once again buy groceries in lbs and ounces. I know what a pound feels like in weight, but not a kilogram. Similarly I can visualize a gallon of petrol but not a litre of it.

 

[P.K.]

"Mark Francois supports reintroducing imperial measurements and says 'this is about freedom of choice' and could be part of a trend 'of rolling back EU red tape'."

I would like to see the appalling Mark Francois explain to lorry drivers stuck in a massive queue outside Dover how their wasting time and money is all part of their "freedom of choice" because I suspect the drivers will then use persuasive arguments to the contrary...

Then, of course, all the extra paperwork they now have to produce will all have to be in order. Except, of course, the bits arch-brexiteer Rees-Flog has delayed introducing because he says it will be yet another brexit own goal...

[Mr. Sausages]

Kids haven’t been taught imperial in school for decades. But a bunch of geriatrics want to bing back opal fruits, shillings and ha’pennies, and VHS tapes so they can feel young again. 

[The Voice of Reason]

28 minutes ago, Mr. Sausages said:

Kids haven’t been taught imperial in school for decades. But a bunch of geriatrics want to bing back opal fruits, shillings and ha’pennies, and VHS tapes so they can feel young again. 

You seem to use the word “geriatric” as a term of abuse. But one day you will be one yourself (more quickly than you would ever have anticipated)

And people will be taking the piss out of you because you thought the I phone 12 ( or 13 whatever) was the coolest thing ever.

Yes kids haven’t been taught imperial measurements in school for decades because it’s so easy to divide everything by ten. As a consequence this has led to a lowering of standards. It’s not that difficult to learn to divide everything by twelve, twenty four or whatever.
In fact it exercises the brain rather than just opting for the easy decimal option. It just makes kids lazy through no fault of their own.

Opal fruits will always be opal fruits , never Starbursts ( what was that all about?)

I don’t really think that anybody, whatever their age is calling for a return of VHS tapes anymore than they wish to see the return of the penny farthing bicycle.

 

Edited May 30, 2022 by The Voice of Reason