Brexit Penny Dropping?

[The Voice of Reason]

37 minutes ago, prism10 said:

There is nothing stopping a British government giving workers more right

Not now post Brexit

Edited July 10, 2022 by The Voice of Reason

[Non-Believer]

[Freggyragh]

We live in a world where brexit chumps whose travel plans are in chaos are now, because they can't blame Europe, blaming the airport operators and airlines — the very people who warned them that brexit would make it impossible to staff the air industry. The penny will never drop with some people. 

Edited July 19, 2022 by Freggyragh

[The Voice of Reason]

6 hours ago, Freggyragh said:

We live in a world where brexit chumps whose travel plans are in chaos are now, because they can't blame Europe, blaming the airport operators and airlines — the very people who warned them that brexit would make it impossible to staff the air industry. The penny will never drop with some people. 

Well I don’t recall any such warnings blaming Brexit for air industry staffing problems. Be happy to be proved wrong if you have any examples It’s my understanding that this is as a result of the effects of COVID and that’s why it’s a worldwide problem , especially in the US

[John Wright]

1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Well I don’t recall any such warnings blaming Brexit for air industry staffing problems. Be happy to be proved wrong if you have any examples It’s my understanding that this is as a result of the effects of COVID and that’s why it’s a worldwide problem , especially in the US

Yes, it’s Europe wide, indeed worldwide. But the UK position has been significantly weakened and our position worsened since 1/1/21.

The issue of separate operators licences, and planes arriving from EU into UK not being able to then do a domestic rotation was certainly warned about. Same with employing ( and recruiting ) EU crew, across the whole network or just on UK domestics was foreshadowed also.

Effectively EZY and Ryanair have to operate separate airlines with separate plane operations and crew operations. Nightmare for rostering and filling in or covering.

Its the same with pet passports. A first world problem, I know. We have travelled on EU UK pet passports for 25 years, with 2, or 3, mutts. A passport cost the initial chip, and rabies ( and originally an antibody test ). Since early 2021 it’s been an Animal Health Certificate. Rabies booster every 3 years. Lasted lifetime of dog. Annual average cost £25 per dog.

Got to apply, via vet, to DEFA every trip now. Maximum validity 4 months. Cost £150 first dog and £50 extra for each additional. Plus the cost of drugs. Dogs average 2 trips a year. So it’s now £400 instead of £50.

Because of our connection to Spain we qualify for a Spanish EU passport. We’d intended getting one in 2020 but covid got in the way.

April 2022 we had both issued with Spanish pet passports. €30 each. Vet got confused and our Spanish wasn’t up to correcting him. Our fault. So he wouldn’t administer a rabies booster.

We got home on the AHC.

So, Paul went to Dublin yesterday to get a 3 year booster, administered in EU, and validly entered in the Spanish passport. To get into Ireland post Brexit they each had to have an AHC, plus a consultation, plus tapeworm treatment. £460. Then we’ve paid for ferry £210, and one night in an hotel in Belfast at £80. Belfast? Well yes. Since Brexit you can no longer bring a pet into the Island from anywhere other than the UK. So we couldn’t return from Dublin.

Now all set. No more cost for 3 years. Only rabies every 3 years. But it’s cost £750. Lots of time. It’ll still save close on £1500 over 3 years, however.

Leave the EU, get rid of bureaucracy and red tape, they said. NO!

The EU Directives regulations created the level playing field and allowed uniformity; and that allowed travel and trade to be seamless. Now we deviate and get hit with 10x the bureaucracy, red tape and inconvenience plus cost.

And it’s not just the pet passports, it’s anything that crosses that border. 

[Freggyragh]

Leavers still have their fingers in their ears, just like when Yellowhammer came out. Someone else's fault. Must be the airlines or the airports or something else run by furriners. 

[The Voice of Reason]

45 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Yes, it’s Europe wide, indeed worldwide. But the UK position has been significantly weakened and our position worsened since 1/1/21.

The issue of separate operators licences, and planes arriving from EU into UK not being able to then do a domestic rotation was certainly warned about. Same with employing ( and recruiting ) EU crew, across the whole network or just on UK domestics was foreshadowed also.

Effectively EZY and Ryanair have to operate separate airlines with separate plane operations and crew operations. Nightmare for rostering and filling in or covering.

Its the same with pet passports. A first world problem, I know. We have travelled on EU UK pet passports for 25 years, with 2, or 3, mutts. A passport cost the initial chip, and rabies ( and originally an antibody test ). Since early 2021 it’s been an Animal Health Certificate. Rabies booster every 3 years. Lasted lifetime of dog. Annual average cost £25 per dog.

Got to apply, via vet, to DEFA every trip now. Maximum validity 4 months. Cost £150 first dog and £50 extra for each additional. Plus the cost of drugs. Dogs average 2 trips a year. So it’s now £400 instead of £50.

Because of our connection to Spain we qualify for a Spanish EU passport. We’d intended getting one in 2020 but covid got in the way.

April 2022 we had both issued with Spanish pet passports. €30 each. Vet got confused and our Spanish wasn’t up to correcting him. Our fault. So he wouldn’t administer a rabies booster.

We got home on the AHC.

So, Paul went to Dublin yesterday to get a 3 year booster, administered in EU, and validly entered in the Spanish passport. To get into Ireland post Brexit they each had to have an AHC, plus a consultation, plus tapeworm treatment. £460. Then we’ve paid for ferry £210, and one night in an hotel in Belfast at £80. Belfast? Well yes. Since Brexit you can no longer bring a pet into the Island from anywhere other than the UK. So we couldn’t return from Dublin.

Now all set. No more cost for 3 years. Only rabies every 3 years. But it’s cost £750. Lots of time. It’ll still save close on £1500 over 3 years, however.

Leave the EU, get rid of bureaucracy and red tape, they said. NO!

The EU Directives regulations created the level playing field and allowed uniformity; and that allowed travel and trade to be seamless. Now we deviate and get hit with 10x the bureaucracy, red tape and inconvenience plus cost.

And it’s not just the pet passports, it’s anything that crosses that border. 

Let’s hope that when the EU have stopped sulking, this and many other issues can be resolved in a spirit of goodwill and reciprocal arrangements can be put in place.

There is no reason not to have cross border cooperation on Anti Terrorist measures etc

I think we need to step back a bit and take stock.

If the EU had not been hell bent on stripping the Member States of their sovereignty,then there would not have been a Brexit referendum (certainly not one that returned a leave result.)

Remainers need to refocus their ire on the true villains in all this. And it’s not those who voted for Brexit.

[John Wright]

55 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Let’s hope that when the EU have stopped sulking, this and many other issues can be resolved in a spirit of goodwill and reciprocal arrangements can be put in place.

There is no reason not to have cross border cooperation on Anti Terrorist measures etc

I think we need to step back a bit and take stock.

If the EU had not been hell bent on stripping the Member States of their sovereignty,then there would not have been a Brexit referendum (certainly not one that returned a leave result.)

Remainers need to refocus their ire on the true villains in all this. And it’s not those who voted for Brexit.

That’s just drivel. The EU isn’t sulking. It’s applying it’s law on third party state relations. Law the UK spent 50 years designing and building, and then thinking that it could become a third party nation and be an exception.

The EU stripped no member state of its sovereignty. Member states pooled their sovereignty in limited areas, and each time they did that it was their choice.

Leave didn’t mean this hard Brexit isolationism. That was a UK choice. UK prime ministers being hamstrung by the extremist ERG.

My ire isn’t towards the Brexit voters, It’s towards ERG, the liars and charlatans who sold the pup, who had no idea what to negotiate for, who blocked the, much better, May deal, and won a fraudulent general election for Boris with his “oven ready” deal, which they now don’t like.

We all know what comes oven ready. Turkeys. And British Brexit is exactly that. A Turkey.

[The Voice of Reason]

“Pooled sovereignty”, surely an oxymoron if ever there was one!

Edited July 20, 2022 by The Voice of Reason

[John Wright]

19 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

“Pooled sovereignty”, surely an oxymoron if ever there was one!

No. Lots of countries, and groupings of states, do it. UK is a prime example. UK & Ireland for CTA,  Nordic countries, Benelux, Belgium, the USA. Any federal country. Canada, AUS, Mexico, India,  Spain with the regions and autonomous communities. Not just the EU. Any country that signs up to International treaties and conventions, belongs to IMF or WTO of the Vienna Convention on International Road Circulation, IMO, ILO, ECHR.

[The Voice of Reason]

8 minutes ago, John Wright said:

No. Lots of countries, and groupings of states, do it. UK is a prime example. UK & Ireland for CTA,  Nordic countries, Benelux, Belgium, the USA. Any federal country. Canada, AUS, Mexico, India,  Spain with the regions and autonomous communities. Not just the EU. Any country that signs up to International treaties and conventions, belongs to IMF or WTO of the Vienna Convention on International Road Circulation, IMO, ILO, ECHR.

Acting in concert, or sharing authority, with would seem a better definition to me. No matter.

[The Voice of Reason]

55 minutes ago, John Wright said:

That’s just drivel. The EU isn’t sulking. It’s applying it’s law on third party state relations. Law the UK spent 50 years designing and building, and then thinking that it could become a third party nation and be an exception.

The EU stripped no member state of its sovereignty. Member states pooled their sovereignty in limited areas, and each time they did that it was their choice.

Leave didn’t mean this hard Brexit isolationism. That was a UK choice. UK prime ministers being hamstrung by the extremist ERG.

My ire isn’t towards the Brexit voters, It’s towards ERG, the liars and charlatans who sold the pup, who had no idea what to negotiate for, who blocked the, much better, May deal, and won a fraudulent general election for Boris with his “oven ready” deal, which they now don’t like.

We all know what comes oven ready. Turkeys. And British Brexit is exactly that. A Turkey.

I understand your frustration with the dog vaccination situation that has arisen as a consequence of Brexit.
What I do find weird is this visceral hatred from Remainers towards the likes of Boris and JRM which ( like as above “liars and charlatans”) makes them look like real sore losers. Like they were cheated or something.

Sure the Brexit camp worded things to their advantage as did the Remain Camp (Project Fear anyone?)

Surely you don’t take at face value the promises a candidate makes in their manifesto during a General Election? To not exercise some scepticism is surely to be niaive.

[John Wright]

28 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

I understand your frustration with the dog vaccination situation that has arisen as a consequence of Brexit.
What I do find weird is this visceral hatred from Remainers towards the likes of Boris and JRM which ( like as above “liars and charlatans”) makes them look like real sore losers. Like they were cheated or something.

Sure the Brexit camp worded things to their advantage as did the Remain Camp (Project Fear anyone?)

Surely you don’t take at face value the promises a candidate makes in their manifesto during a General Election? To not exercise some scepticism is surely to be niaive.

As far as I’m concerned JRM and Farage and Francois and their ilk are traitors, guilty of treason.

The damage they’ve done, and continue to do, to the UK, its international standing and economy are ongoing, increasing and irreparable. Remember project fear? It’s reality and will get worse, much worse.

I don’t so much blame Boris. Everyone knew he was a self serving opportunist who was only in it for Boris. But he, and before him May, Cameron and Major have been fighting the enemy from within, the extreme right, libertarians, small staters. The likes of Truss. No idea of economics. No idea of real life and real people and the effect of austerity on community and services. Just the mantra of lower taxes.

They've been in power 12 years, time before that it was 14. It’s their mess. They need to go.

Brexit was nothing to do with loss of sovereignty, and all to do with Tories doing anything to hang on to power, irrespective of the good or harm to the country. 

Of course I expect all politicians to be inept, I’m wholly sceptical.

The pet passports are just a very personal example. But the bureaucracy and paperwork are affecting all exporters, financial service providers. Travellers. I now have to have a UK SIM and an EU SIM as well as my Manx SIM to avoid expensive roaming. The charges for transfers to, or from my euro/sterling/leva accounts are horrendous.

[The Voice of Reason]

1 hour ago, John Wright said:

As far as I’m concerned JRM and Farage and Francois and their ilk are traitors, guilty of treason.

The damage they’ve done, and continue to do, to the UK, its international standing and economy are ongoing, increasing and irreparable. Remember project fear? It’s reality and will get worse, much worse.

I don’t so much blame Boris. Everyone knew he was a self serving opportunist who was only in it for Boris. But he, and before him May, Cameron and Major have been fighting the enemy from within, the extreme right, libertarians, small staters. The likes of Truss. No idea of economics. No idea of real life and real people and the effect of austerity on community and services. Just the mantra of lower taxes.

They've been in power 12 years, time before that it was 14. It’s their mess. They need to go.

Brexit was nothing to do with loss of sovereignty, and all to do with Tories doing anything to hang on to power, irrespective of the good or harm to the country. 

Of course I expect all politicians to be inept, I’m wholly sceptical.

The pet passports are just a very personal example. But the bureaucracy and paperwork are affecting all exporters, financial service providers. Travellers. I now have to have a UK SIM and an EU SIM as well as my Manx SIM to avoid expensive roaming. The charges for transfers to, or from my euro/sterling/leva accounts are horrendous.

I can’t get you to change your mind then?

[John Wright]

13 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

I can’t get you to change your mind then?

No, but you are clearly not a voice of reason. You’re blinded by the false claims about sovereignty, independence and £350m per week, plus all the other illusory benefits.

I know it’s hard, still, to filter out the effects of covid from the effects of Brexit. The former are temporary, the latter are long term and deeply troubling.

Im not bitter about Brexit, it can’t be undone. But we could ameliorate many of the effects if ERG still didn’t rule the roost and threaten the “integrity” of the Tory party, it’s policy making and any prime minister and cabinet.

Until they’re out of office we haven’t a chance.

And if you were being reasonable you’d agree. 

ERG hijacked the Brexit debate to exploit the policy and leadership vacuum after the shock referendum result. In the lead up to the vote even Farage and R-M accepted that disengagement would take years and be gradual. Virtually no one suggested a hard Brexit.