woolley Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 17 minutes ago, John Wright said: That’s just nonsense. It’s neither politically, legally or pragmatically true. There is a huge amount of shared sovereignty. Between England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. The sharing started on different dates, and has changed, and areas ( Republic of Ireland ) have stopped sharing. UN, and all associated bodies. International Criminal Court. WTO. Antarctic Treaty Organisation. Vienna Convention on International Circulation of Traffic. EHCR. They all take something away, but give something much greater. And so it was for the EU. The fundamental meaning of sovereignty, and the disproof of your argument, is that you can exit the arrangement because you have sovereignty. The question is not about sovereignty, but whether the loss of advantages is outweighed by the resumption of isolation. That’s the Scottish question. It will be the Irish question, with substitution of sovereignty being shared with one jurisdiction to it being shared with another. And of course the EU was about consent between equals. Things moved at glacial speed sometimes due to the need for consensus. But the democratisation of the process by creating a Parliament, having direct elections, seems to be seen as a threat by some. The EU will still be there, long after the UK is dissolved. If you can't see what's wrong with all of that, I'm not going to help the willfully blind. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 22 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: If the UK is dissolved it will be as a result of democratic vote(s). Which people should accept. Just like Brexit If it's no longer the will of the people, is it democratic to continue? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 7 hours ago, Apple said: Vox populi is a dangerous weapon and can be very easily manipulated by those who know how to and are in positions to do so.. The UK electorate were duped into voting as they did. Nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
code99 Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 6 hours ago, P.K. said: Which is why the UK dropped out of beneficial schemes like Erasmus because the brexiters voted for Third Country Status. As has been pointed out ad infinitum every trade deal you make means surrendering some sovereignty. That's why they're called "trade deals" you see. Trading some sovereignty for a more advantageous trade position. Something Liz Truss must have forgotten when she signed up the UK to non-beneficial trade deals in the Antipodes.... It is interesting to listen to young Europeans expressing their commitment to the EU, even though this means that they have to forgo some of their countries’ national sovereignty for the good of the ‘European Project’. Far from feeling that they are being snubbed by the ‘evil empire’, many of them, especially from the poorest member-states, view the EU membership as the best thing that happened to them (e.g., Erasmus scholarship) and more broadly, to their countries. Of course, as consumers they welcome ‘pragmatic’ trade deals with the rest of the world, but first and foremost they are proud to be citizens of the EU. IMHO, the Brexiteers’ unfounded hopes of ‘dividing and conquering’ are unlikely to ever succeed – the UK is now their lesser neighbour and commercial competitor, albeit on friendly terms. The EU is the world’s largest trading bloc, but it is also so much more than that. Over many years EU countries have slowly but surely been nudging towards ever increasing political partnership and the integration of EU member-states on the continent. Brexiteers failed to understand Brexit from the EU’s point of view i.e., what the EU believes their priorities are different to what Brexiteers believed the EU’s priorities were. For that reason, I believe that the UK should grab a Swiss-style trade deal with both hands - this would be a compromise well worthy of previous British governments with reputations for common sense and pragmatic approaches to solving international problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 19 minutes ago, code99 said: It is interesting to listen to young Europeans expressing their commitment to the EU, even though this means that they have to forgo some of their countries’ national sovereignty for the good of the ‘European Project’. Far from feeling that they are being snubbed by the ‘evil empire’, many of them, especially from the poorest member-states, view the EU membership as the best thing that happened to them (e.g., Erasmus scholarship) and more broadly, to their countries. Of course, as consumers they welcome ‘pragmatic’ trade deals with the rest of the world, but first and foremost they are proud to be citizens of the EU. IMHO, the Brexiteers’ unfounded hopes of ‘dividing and conquering’ are unlikely to ever succeed – the UK is now their lesser neighbour and commercial competitor, albeit on friendly terms. The EU is the world’s largest trading bloc, but it is also so much more than that. Over many years EU countries have slowly but surely been nudging towards ever increasing political partnership and the integration of EU member-states on the continent. Brexiteers failed to understand Brexit from the EU’s point of view i.e., what the EU believes their priorities are different to what Brexiteers believed the EU’s priorities were. For that reason, I believe that the UK should grab a Swiss-style trade deal with both hands - this would be a compromise well worthy of previous British governments with reputations for common sense and pragmatic approaches to solving international problems. “ They are proud be citizens of the EU” This is nonsense. Are they not proud to be citizens of their own countries as I for example am (this makes one neither xenophobic or racist) ? Are they not equally proud to be citizens of the world? Brexiteers totally understood Brexit from the EU’s point of view and they didn’t like it. They just don’t want to be part of this “European Project” They didn’t want an “ever increasing political partnership and the integration of EU member states”. Brexiteers do not have hopes,unfounded or otherwise of “ dividing and conquering the EU” Let the remaining member states get on with it. Finally, what is this over emphasis on what the young are perceived to want, as exemplified in your first paragraph? Do the opinions of those of an older age not count? It invites comparison with those young Just Stop Oil protesters tying themselves to gantry’s on the M25 wailing hysterically that their futures have been taken from them. The discontinuation of the Erasmus scheme hardly is not really such a disaster. With goodwill on both sides there is nothing to prevent some sort of alternative being established. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 9 hours ago, Apple said: The UK electorate were duped into voting as they did. Says one who obviously didn’t like the result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 14 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: With goodwill on both sides there is nothing to prevent some sort of alternative being established. What a joke post that is. "Goodwill" towards the EU from the ERG...? You're having a laugh! This planet you're on. Can you see Earth from up there...? Woolley is still pushing the much hackneyed "sovereignty" non-argument. Even including the emotive: "Our forebears have fought and died for centuries to stave off hegemony from the continent. "Nothing that involves the jurisdiction of European Courts or the European Parliament having primacy over domestic law is acceptable. The principle really is as straightforward as that, or it should be." Which is why we had a veto n'est ce pas...? As the EU are nothing like as stupid as our own home-grown politicians it was a veto we never actually had to deploy. Not that I know of anyway. The best trading deal in the best trading bloc on the planet now all spaffed away by totally unscrupulous politicians who have only their own self-interest as their core belief and making mugs out of all those who didn't know any better. Including plenty on here... Time the brexiteers on here started listing all their "Brexit Benefits" which make a GDP loss of at least 4%, investment down by 14%, businesses who used to export to the EU folding, lack of workers etc etc all worthwhile.... Good luck with that one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apple Posted November 22, 2022 Share Posted November 22, 2022 20 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said: Says one who obviously didn’t like the result. I really didn't, and don't give a toss about what they decided. My only interest was only to see the psychological techniques being used to sway people either way. Anyway it has worked out well hasn't it. The country is still divided over the decision. And so are some on here. 😀 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted November 22, 2022 Share Posted November 22, 2022 Reinforcing the negative stereotype, that of all brexiteers being nothing more than gormless, xenophobic, Daily Mail reading, racist, knuckle-dragging, (etc etc) no marks is unhelpful though, don't you think..? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted November 22, 2022 Share Posted November 22, 2022 40 minutes ago, quilp said: Reinforcing the negative stereotype, that of all brexiteers being nothing more than gormless, xenophobic, Daily Mail reading, racist, knuckle-dragging, (etc etc) no marks is unhelpful though, don't you think..? No, some of them are chinless, out of their time, Eton and Oxford attending, Lord Snooty’s, still gormless no marks. The difference, daddy, and his chums, own or Edit, the Mail, Sun, Express, Telegraph, Times, often from tax exile in Monaco or Brecqhou or USA. They spin the news and twist it to influence the nation, especially those you are defending, and have been doing so from a rabidly anti EU perspective for 40+ years. That’s where Johnson came from, making up lies to print in their rags as well. Is that helpful? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted November 22, 2022 Share Posted November 22, 2022 1 hour ago, John Wright said: No, some of them are chinless, out of their time, Eton and Oxford attending, Lord Snooty’s, still gormless no marks. The difference, daddy, and his chums, own or Edit, the Mail, Sun, Express, Telegraph, Times, often from tax exile in Monaco or Brecqhou or USA. They spin the news and twist it to influence the nation, especially those you are defending, and have been doing so from a rabidly anti EU perspective for 40+ years. That’s where Johnson came from, making up lies to print in their rags as well. Is that helpful? No Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted November 22, 2022 Share Posted November 22, 2022 3 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: No That’s because it’s true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted November 22, 2022 Share Posted November 22, 2022 Yes, JW, I'd agree with most of your post and appreciate the power and influence the media game played by all sides in the argument had on the voters. And unfortunately, still playing out 6 years later. @Apple is right, the nation was duped by promises never to be realised, sold a pup without pedigree. But that does not make those who voted to leave, xenophobic, racist simpletons, as repeatedly claimed, ad nauseum on here by certain posters. That insidious portrayal of brexiteers has been my objection all along. By now I don't have any real fucks to give on this subject. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted November 22, 2022 Share Posted November 22, 2022 On 11/21/2022 at 6:22 PM, woolley said: Nothing that involves the jurisdiction of European Courts or the European Parliament having primacy over domestic law is acceptable. The principle really is as straightforward as that, or it should You're going to love this... https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/22/owen-paterson-taking-uk-to-human-rights-court-after-lobbying-scandal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 12 hours ago, manxman1980 said: You're going to love this... https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/22/owen-paterson-taking-uk-to-human-rights-court-after-lobbying-scandal That court has nothing to do with the EU. It is ironic though.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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