P.K. Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 30 minutes ago, woolley said: I don't have a lot of time for Johnson generally. He was never even a genuine supporter of Brexit. Let's face it, anyone who agonises for a whole weekend as BoJo did over whether to support leave or remain is hardly a true believer. We develop deep convictions about weighty matters such as this over decades of experience; or at least we should. He was doing what he always does - opportunistically looking after Boris. However, in this instance I can see where he was coming from politically. Somebody had to do something to overcome the treachery of the 2017-19 Parliament where Soubry and Co, aided and abetted by Bercow, were employing every trick in the book to frustrate the referendum result. He had to have something to fight the 2019 election with, and this was it. Grudgingly, I have to admit that there was seemingly nobody else on the stage who could deliver what had been voted for. To this extent the end justified the means and his place in history is assured. What a load of nonsense. Errr.... you seem to have forgotten that Johnson illegally prorogued parliament in order to prevent the HoC scrutinising his legislation efforts! An oversight I'm sure..... Not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 You see? He's still here. 😇 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genericUserName Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, manxman1980 said: the Brexit crowd are likely to have a fit. Even the Daily Telegraph has started to editorialise that Brexit has failed. That's a significant measure of just how much the project has failed. Not the BBC, or The Guardian or The Times. Edited February 28, 2023 by genericUserName 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genericUserName Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 1 hour ago, woolley said: Grudgingly, I have to admit that there was seemingly nobody else on the stage who could deliver what had been voted for Stop and think about why no serious politicians were able to honestly stand behind the version of Brexit which has now self-evidently failed. Many other versions of Brexit would have fullfilled the criteria of leaving. A much softer and less ideological and pedantic approach would have much better reflected the closeness of the vote. And would likely have worked much better. Brexit might have been seen as a success. There was also never any need for the negotiations with the EU to be so deliberately antagonistic. That was only ever a populist attempt to play to the culture wars and appeal to the lowest common denominators. Because it was being driven by the worst sort of people. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 1 hour ago, genericUserName said: Stop and think about why no serious politicians were able to honestly stand behind the version of Brexit which has now self-evidently failed. Many other versions of Brexit would have fullfilled the criteria of leaving. A much softer and less ideological and pedantic approach would have much better reflected the closeness of the vote. And would likely have worked much better. Brexit might have been seen as a success. There was also never any need for the negotiations with the EU to be so deliberately antagonistic. That was only ever a populist attempt to play to the culture wars and appeal to the lowest common denominators. Because it was being driven by the worst sort of people. Yes it’s obvious that the process of Brexit has not been managed as well as it might have been, in part being hampered by the EU being so obstructive and spiteful. But the overriding matter is that the will of the British people has prevailed and the UK has left the EU. For that we should be grateful. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 19 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: Yes it’s obvious that the process of Brexit has not been managed as well as it might have been, in part being hampered by the EU being so obstructive and spiteful. How has the EU been obstructive and spiteful? 19 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: But the overriding matter is that the will of the British people has prevailed and the UK has left the EU. For that we should be grateful. Well a proportion of the British people anyway... Please stop pretending that the referendum result wasn't close even if it did deliver your preferred result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 3 hours ago, woolley said: I have absolutely no problem with a European free trade zone similar to the Single Market, but it should be run along the lines of NAFTA. There is absolutely no need or desire for the apparatus and trappings of state at continental level, and therefore no risk to sovereignty. I am not familiar enough with NAFTA but any trade agreement requires negotiation and give and take from both parties. That means that you give up some sovereignty to enable free.trade by agreeing to specific standards for import and export of goods and services. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 (edited) 28 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: How has the EU been obstructive and spiteful? Well a proportion of the British people anyway... Please stop pretending that the referendum result wasn't close even if it did deliver your preferred result. No one is pretending the result wasn’t close. Certainly not me The referendum result was published, so how could you claim otherwise ( duh) “A proportion of the British people anyway” Yes the majority proportion. Do you not understand democracy ? Why on earth can’t Remainers accept the result? It’s as clear as day. It’s like saying my football team only lost one- nil. That was very close, let’s have a rematch FFS And if remain had won by however small a margin I would have accepted it and not be banging on about it seven years later. Edited February 28, 2023 by The Voice of Reason Addition of last paragraph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 35 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: Please stop pretending that the referendum result wasn't close Sorry I’ve just re read that and I’m still aghast that you actually wrote that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 19 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: No one is pretending the result wasn’t close. Certainly not me The referendum result was published, so how could you claim otherwise ( duh) “A proportion of the British people anyway” Yes the majority proportion. Do you not understand democracy ? Why on earth can’t Remainers accept the result? It’s as clear as day. It’s like saying my football team only lost one- nil. That was very close, let’s have a rematch FFS Nobody is claiming anything different about the result. (Duh) I wanted to remain but like all of us as far as I'm concerned I accepted the result the morning it was published. Like anyone had a choice to the contrary... So who are these mythical folks you claim who haven't accepted the result? I don't know of any so please point them out. Purely for comedy value of course... As far as it goes I will continually point out the total clusterfuck that is your totally brainless and completely unnecessary brexit until you admit you fucked up and apologise for all the harm your collective stupidity has foisted on the rest of us... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 8 minutes ago, P.K. said: Nobody is claiming anything different about the result. (Duh) I wanted to remain but like all of us as far as I'm concerned I accepted the result the morning it was published. Like anyone had a choice to the contrary... So who are these mythical folks you claim who haven't accepted the result? I don't know of any so please point them out. Purely for comedy value of course... Those who said that people who voted for Brexit didn’t know what they were doing, they were all racists etc so their votes were based on a false premise and there should therefore have been a re run. Those sort of mythical folk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 4 hours ago, woolley said: You see? He's still here. 😇 @woolley Now about Tomatogate...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 18 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 38 minutes ago, P.K. said: @woolley Now about Tomatogate...? Debunked all that rubbish last night. Do keep up, PK. I'm quite sure that if I went into the wilderness for 40 years and then came back and posted on this thread, two minutes later you'd be there with some cockeyed view of Brexit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 10 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said: No one is pretending the result wasn’t close. Certainly not me The referendum result was published, so how could you claim otherwise ( duh) “A proportion of the British people anyway” Yes the majority proportion. Do you not understand democracy ? I do understand democracy but I do think there are flaws. I don't agree with the first past the post system for starters. Why? It can result in a candidate gaining 30% of the vote but still being elected meaning that more people didn't want that candidate than did but still get lumbered with them. That system then forces tactical voting and you end up with a two party system which is crap and removes choice. As for the referendum result I accept that the leave camp won and by a small majority. There was also a significant part of the electorate who, for whatever reason, did not vote. We simply do not know their views so I treat a small minority win with caution. That is all and it is why I disagree with statements claiming that brexit was "the will of the people". It was the will of just over half of the people who voted which is rather different. 10 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said: Why on earth can’t Remainers accept the result? It’s as clear as day. It’s like saying my football team only lost one- nil. That was very close, let’s have a rematch FFS League fixtures have home and away ties. Some cup fixtures are over two legs and there is a new football season every year. Not sure your analogy works... 10 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said: And if remain had won by however small a margin I would have accepted it and not be banging on about it seven years later. Great. Niger Farage said he would not have accepted it though so please don't pretend you speak for everyone who voted Brexit. It is the same with the remain camp. We are where we are as far as I am concerned and we need to get on with life. There will be some remain supporters who will not want to accept it. I also don't see myself as a remainer anymore. I am moving towards being a rejoiner I look forward to all these Brexit benefits we were promised though. I just hope that I am still around to see them! 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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