Brexit Penny Dropping?

[genericUserName]

34 minutes ago, woolley said:

People are pretty shallow and they invariably blame their trials and tribulations on the status quo. Before Brexit it was the EU. Now it's Brexit!

Here you are implicitly saying that those who voted for Brexit were shallow.

[manxman1980]

2 hours ago, woolley said:

Of course they do. People are pretty shallow and they invariably blame their trials and tribulations on the status quo. Before Brexit it was the EU. Now it's Brexit! They pay no heed to the damage caused by the pandemic and its aftermath, and the war in Europe that has caused rising commodity prices throughout the world.

That ignores evidence that other economies have returned to pre-pandemic levels and whilst the UK is boasting faster growth we are still not back to pre-pandemic levels.

The  UK has to grow its economy fast just to catch up with the rest.

[The Voice of Reason]

On 4/27/2023 at 9:12 AM, La Colombe said:

54% of people in Britain think it was wrong to leave the European Union against 34% who believe it was right. Amazing. I wonder if the imminent border checks will further erode support for the decision? 

Just saying. In a couple of years those figures may be reversed. It’s just a snapshot on a particular day. The only poll that counts was the referendum on the day. Even if some won’t accept it.

Edited April 28, 2023 by The Voice of Reason
Addition of last sentence

[woolley]

On 4/28/2023 at 3:13 PM, genericUserName said:

Here you are implicitly saying that those who voted for Brexit were shallow.

What I'm saying explicitly is that most people don't really know the issues and don't really have the desire to educate themselves. It's no great revelation that there were masses of voters with limited engagement on both sides.

[P.K.]

33 minutes ago, woolley said:

What I'm saying explicitly is that most people don't really know the issues and don't really have the desire to educate themselves. It's no great revelation that there were masses of voters with limited engagement on both sides.

That's simply not true.

Some 48% who voted knew exactly what they were voting for to wit the UK thriving as a member of the EU.

The other 52% could well have believed the lies fed to them by Farage, Gove, Johnson and the UK right wing press in thrall to the agenda of the owner. Which is to say pretty much all of it. So they may well of thought they knew what they were voting for but the reality was they were being taken for mugs...

[woolley]

12 hours ago, P.K. said:

That's simply not true.

Some 48% who voted knew exactly what they were voting for to wit the UK thriving as a member of the EU.

The other 52% could well have believed the lies fed to them by Farage, Gove, Johnson and the UK right wing press in thrall to the agenda of the owner. Which is to say pretty much all of it. So they may well of thought they knew what they were voting for but the reality was they were being taken for mugs...

And right on cue, my honourable friend arrives to affirm my point more succinctly than I could with words. They only thought they knew what they were voting for, if they thought at all. A bit like all of those red wall seats voting for the avuncular matey Boris to "get Brexit done", and a couple of years later they finished up with Liz Truss. Who'd have thought that? What I'm saying is that the EU isn't the finished article. They weren't voting for a situation frozen in time as you seem to take for granted. That's the worry of the whole EU project. The mission creep and the horrors of where it is creeping to.

[P.K.]

40 minutes ago, woolley said:

What I'm saying is that the EU isn't the finished article. They weren't voting for a situation frozen in time as you seem to take for granted. That's the worry of the whole EU project. The mission creep and the horrors of where it is creeping to.

Spare us the histrionics drama queen.

Your precious brexit has taken the UK to exactly where you were warned it would go.

Rosi isn't too impressed by it:

Rosi Simpson, a teacher from Brighton, is one of the latest to be caught up in the confusion. She says she was left “mortified and in tears” after EasyJet staff refused to allow her to board a flight to Paris to see her son, who is studying there, because her UK passport had been issued 10 years and one day previously.

“I had no idea of the 10-year rule,” she says. “I’d checked the expiry date, and my passport had eight months remaining. What happened at the boarding gate was absolutely awful. I lost the cost of the flight and the accommodation I’d booked – I’d been so looking forward to seeing my son - all because a load of wankers voted for Brexit. What I don’t understand is why this [rule change] hasn’t had more publicity – an information campaign. I wasn’t the only one who this had happened to at the airport that day,” she says.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/apr/29/briton-valid-passport-barred-from-flight-brexit-rules-eu

Edited April 30, 2023 by P.K.

[woolley]

And I'M a drama queen?

[P.K.]

3 minutes ago, woolley said:

And I'M a drama queen?

"That's the worry of the whole EU project. The mission creep and the horrors of where it is creeping to."

Looks like it...

Bit of a grin. The online version of the tale of woe from Rosi differs from my yesterday's printed version in that this line "all because a load of wankers voted for Brexit" has been removed. The reason is at the bottom of the piece:

This article was amended on 30 April 2023 at the request of an interviewee 🙂

[The Voice of Reason]

16 hours ago, P.K. said:

That's simply not true.

Some 48% who voted knew exactly what they were voting for to wit the UK thriving as a member of the EU.

The other 52% could well have believed the lies fed to them by Farage, Gove, Johnson and the UK right wing press in thrall to the agenda of the owner. Which is to say pretty much all of it. So they may well of thought they knew what they were voting for but the reality was they were being taken for mugs...

The seven year old mantra,  “Remainers are clever, Leave voters are stupid”

You lost, loser. Just man up and take it on the chin.

[P.K.]

34 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

The seven year old mantra,  “Remainers are clever, Leave voters are stupid”

@The Voice of Reason

As I posted previously, Remain voters have all the facts, Leave voters only have opinions mostly based on falsehoods.

Take this nonsense:

On 3/1/2023 at 11:04 AM, The Voice of Reason said:

We’ve already got the major benefit of Brexit. Self determination.

How is it you don't know that the only institution who can make UK law is our own Sovereign Parliament?

Had you been aware of that you would have realised that we have always had self determination throughout our membership of the EU. Everything that came from the EU, like banning certain pesticides as they were a risk to health and so forth, had to go through the HoC and then had to be signed into law by the Queen. As to this:

44 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

You lost, loser. Just man up and take it on the chin.

We all lost you idiot. Have a flavour of how much your precious brexit has cost us all:

1. No barriers to trade with the world's largest trading bloc. (Bristol, Berlin, Barcelona all equally accessible.)
 
2. Free trade deals with 70+ countries, including Japan, Canada, South Korea and Mercosur.

3. Frictionless borders allowing the just-in-time manufacturing that underpins millions of jobs in auto, aerospace etc.
 
4. Open borders between NI and Ireland, and NI and GB. No customs or paperwork.

5. Support for the Good Friday Agreement and the Irish peace process. EU PEACE funding for NI.

6. A stronger united front against a resurgent Russia, and other threats.
 
7 Freedom for UK citizens to travel, work, study, or retire anywhere in the EU.

8. Freedom for EU citizens to travel, work, study, or retire in the UK.

9. Participation in the EU Single Energy Market for a more resilient energy supply.
 
10 Horizon Europe programme for scientific and academic collaboration. Access to grants and knowledge pooling.

11. Collaborative space exploration, and participation in Galileo GPS satellite.

12. Driving licenses valid across the EU. No permits or insurance green cards needed. 

13. Easy and cheap travel with pets using multi-year pet passports.

14. Generous fixed compensation for flight delays and cancellations based on EU passenger rights.

15. European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) scheme, covering pre-existing medical conditions and maternity care.
 
16. EU-wide roaming at home rates. No carrier surcharges.

17. Access to home content on streaming services anywhere in the EU.

18. Participation in Erasmus+ student exchange programme with 4000+ universities in 31 countries.

19. Study in EU universities at cheaper local rates.
 
20. Enhanced consumer protections, including on cross-border shopping.

21. Simplified VAT filing for EU sales.

22. Cross-border tax collaboration to hold big firms like Amazon and Facebook accountable.

23. European Social Fund training courses for the unemployed.
 
24. Disaster relief funding, e.g. 60 million euro for UK floods in 2017.

25. Access to the ECJ as a court of last resort.

26. Significant environmental protections, as a floor not a ceiling.

27. Quicker access to safe/new medicines thanks to a one-stop pan-EU testing regime.
 
28. A single system of chemical regulation (REACH) governing chemical safety.

29. Cooperation on security issues and access to shared crime and terrorism databases.

30. Participation in European arrest warrant for speedy capture and extradition of criminals.
 
31. Participation in EURATOM programme for vital medical isotopes.

32. Financial support for neglected rural areas.

33. Better food labelling regulations, including country of origin of primary ingredients.

34. EU funding to support British film, theatre and music.
 
35. Free movement for musicians, bands, artists etc. and full access to the flourishing European culture scene.

36. Participation in European Capital of Culture programme that previously boosted cities like Glasgow and Liverpool.
 
37. Ability for service providers to offer services across EU on same basis as UK.

38. EU citizenship with additional rights and protections in parallel with UK citizenship.

39. No VAT or duty on goods imported from EU (no surprises on online purchases).
 
40. Venture capital funding and access to startup loans.

41. Legal protection of minority languages (e.g. Welsh).

42. Mutual recognition of academic and professional qualifications across EU.

43. EU-wide protection of foods of geographic origin (e.g. Melton Mowbray pork pies). 

44. No surcharges on credit card and debit card transactions (illegal in EU).

45. EU structural funding (e.g. £2 billion for Liverpool regeneration) with matched funds.

46. Support for democracy in post-Communist countries.
 
47. A bigger presence on the world stage to counter the dominance of the USA and China.

48. Products made or grown in the UK can be sold in 30+ countries without red tape.

49. Strong food hygiene standards, including bans on chlorinated chicken, hormone beef, GM crops.
 
50. Objective 1 funding for deprived areas and regions.

51. Financial passporting for firms in the City of London to service EU clients.

52. 14-day cooling off period on new timeshare agreements.

53. Minimum 2-year warranty period against faulty goods.
 
54. Consular protection from any EU embassy or consulate outside the EU (if there's no UK embassy).

55. Protection against discriminatory treatment when working in other EU countries.

56. Secure baseline of worker protections, including limits on hours, maternity leave etc.
 
57. Minimum of 4 weeks of paid leave a year.

58. Right to land fish in any EU port, and an easy process for declaring catches.

59. Access to a willing seasonal workforce to pick our fruit and vegetables.

60. Guaranteed supply of medicines (30+ million packs a month from EU).
 
61. Major say in running of the EU, with British MEPs and judges, and the right to propose and amend laws.

62. Say in setting the EU budget, priorities and focus.

63. More influence on environmental issues, since EU law governs 27 countries.
 
64. Cleaner air, backed by the EU Air Quality Directive. (EU can sue UK for non-compliance.)

65. Strong pan-EU IP protection, including participation in forthcoming unified patent system.

66. Among highest toy safety standards in the world.

67. Protection of 500 bird species.
 
68. Cleaner beaches, with stronger penalties for sewage discharges than the post-Brexit system.

69. Pan-EU regulators (food, chemicals etc.) that offer simplified testing regimes for all EU countries.

70. Participation in EU pandemic Early Warning and Response system (EWRS)
 
71. Right to vote and stand in local and European elections in any EU country.

72. Right to communicate with EU institutions in any of 24 official languages.

73. Right to petition the European Parliament on any matter within EU’s fields of activity.
 
74. Support for people with disabilities, including the European Accessibility Act and EU parking card.

75. Right to purchase services online from anywhere in EU at the same price as locals.

76. Bring home anything bought in another EU country without a customs declaration.
 
77. Right to cancel and return any product bought outside of a shop within 14 days.

78. Strong data protection laws such as GDPR, protecting personal data in any format.

79. Right to know what personal data a firm holds on you within a month.

80. Strong right to be forgotten.
 
81. Banks must charge same for euro payments across EU as for equivalent national transactions.

82. Insurance firms can sell products across the EU without being established in every country.

83. Ability to register .eu domain names.
 
84. Enhanced human rights protection through the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union.

85. Broadcasters can obtain a single broadcasting licence valid across the whole of the EU.

86. Regulation and reporting of CO2 emissions in new vans and lorries.
 
88. DiscoverEU passes for free travel by train for 18-year-olds to explore Europe. (These also unlock a range of discounts.)

89. European Solidarity Corps funded opportunities for young people to volunteer and work across Europe.
 
90. European Voluntary Service projects for short-term or long-term volunteering abroad for young people aged 18-30.

91. Long-term loans from the European Investment Bank (EIB) for projects that align with EU goals.
 
92. Creative Europe programme participation for the cultural and creative sectors, and the promotion of cultural diversity.

93. Access to the Connecting Europe Facility (CEF) which supports investment in trans-European networks in the transport, energy and digital sectors. 

94. Participation in the European Citizens' Initiative, allowing citizens to propose new measures directly to the European Commission, subject to accumulating a million signatures.

95. Participation in the CE mark conformity programme. 

Etc.....

[The Voice of Reason]

24 minutes ago, P.K. said:

@The Voice of Reason

As I posted previously, Remain voters have all the facts, Leave voters only have opinions mostly based on falsehoods.

Take this nonsense:

How is it you don't know that the only institution who can make UK law is our own Sovereign Parliament?

Had you been aware of that you would have realised that we have always had self determination throughout our membership of the EU. Everything that came from the EU, like banning certain pesticides as they were a risk to health and so forth, had to go through the HoC and then had to be signed into law by the Queen. As to this:

We all lost you idiot. Have a flavour of how much your precious brexit has cost us all:

1. No barriers to trade with the world's largest trading bloc. (Bristol, Berlin, Barcelona all equally accessible.)
 
2. Free trade deals with 70+ countries, including Japan, Canada, South Korea and Mercosur.

3. Frictionless borders allowing the just-in-time manufacturing that underpins millions of jobs in auto, aerospace etc.
 
4. Open borders between NI and Ireland, and NI and GB. No customs or paperwork.

5. Support for the Good Friday Agreement and the Irish peace process. EU PEACE funding for NI.

6. A stronger united front against a resurgent Russia, and other threats.
 
7 Freedom for UK citizens to travel, work, study, or retire anywhere in the EU.

8. Freedom for EU citizens to travel, work, study, or retire in the UK.

9. Participation in the EU Single Energy Market for a more resilient energy supply.
 
10 Horizon Europe programme for scientific and academic collaboration. Access to grants and knowledge pooling.

11. Collaborative space exploration, and participation in Galileo GPS satellite.

12. Driving licenses valid across the EU. No permits or insurance green cards needed. 

13. Easy and cheap travel with pets using multi-year pet passports.

14. Generous fixed compensation for flight delays and cancellations based on EU passenger rights.

15. European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) scheme, covering pre-existing medical conditions and maternity care.
 
16. EU-wide roaming at home rates. No carrier surcharges.

17. Access to home content on streaming services anywhere in the EU.

18. Participation in Erasmus+ student exchange programme with 4000+ universities in 31 countries.

19. Study in EU universities at cheaper local rates.
 
20. Enhanced consumer protections, including on cross-border shopping.

21. Simplified VAT filing for EU sales.

22. Cross-border tax collaboration to hold big firms like Amazon and Facebook accountable.

23. European Social Fund training courses for the unemployed.
 
24. Disaster relief funding, e.g. 60 million euro for UK floods in 2017.

25. Access to the ECJ as a court of last resort.

26. Significant environmental protections, as a floor not a ceiling.

27. Quicker access to safe/new medicines thanks to a one-stop pan-EU testing regime.
 
28. A single system of chemical regulation (REACH) governing chemical safety.

29. Cooperation on security issues and access to shared crime and terrorism databases.

30. Participation in European arrest warrant for speedy capture and extradition of criminals.
 
31. Participation in EURATOM programme for vital medical isotopes.

32. Financial support for neglected rural areas.

33. Better food labelling regulations, including country of origin of primary ingredients.

34. EU funding to support British film, theatre and music.
 
35. Free movement for musicians, bands, artists etc. and full access to the flourishing European culture scene.

36. Participation in European Capital of Culture programme that previously boosted cities like Glasgow and Liverpool.
 
37. Ability for service providers to offer services across EU on same basis as UK.

38. EU citizenship with additional rights and protections in parallel with UK citizenship.

39. No VAT or duty on goods imported from EU (no surprises on online purchases).
 
40. Venture capital funding and access to startup loans.

41. Legal protection of minority languages (e.g. Welsh).

42. Mutual recognition of academic and professional qualifications across EU.

43. EU-wide protection of foods of geographic origin (e.g. Melton Mowbray pork pies). 

44. No surcharges on credit card and debit card transactions (illegal in EU).

45. EU structural funding (e.g. £2 billion for Liverpool regeneration) with matched funds.

46. Support for democracy in post-Communist countries.
 
47. A bigger presence on the world stage to counter the dominance of the USA and China.

48. Products made or grown in the UK can be sold in 30+ countries without red tape.

49. Strong food hygiene standards, including bans on chlorinated chicken, hormone beef, GM crops.
 
50. Objective 1 funding for deprived areas and regions.

51. Financial passporting for firms in the City of London to service EU clients.

52. 14-day cooling off period on new timeshare agreements.

53. Minimum 2-year warranty period against faulty goods.
 
54. Consular protection from any EU embassy or consulate outside the EU (if there's no UK embassy).

55. Protection against discriminatory treatment when working in other EU countries.

56. Secure baseline of worker protections, including limits on hours, maternity leave etc.
 
57. Minimum of 4 weeks of paid leave a year.

58. Right to land fish in any EU port, and an easy process for declaring catches.

59. Access to a willing seasonal workforce to pick our fruit and vegetables.

60. Guaranteed supply of medicines (30+ million packs a month from EU).
 
61. Major say in running of the EU, with British MEPs and judges, and the right to propose and amend laws.

62. Say in setting the EU budget, priorities and focus.

63. More influence on environmental issues, since EU law governs 27 countries.
 
64. Cleaner air, backed by the EU Air Quality Directive. (EU can sue UK for non-compliance.)

65. Strong pan-EU IP protection, including participation in forthcoming unified patent system.

66. Among highest toy safety standards in the world.

67. Protection of 500 bird species.
 
68. Cleaner beaches, with stronger penalties for sewage discharges than the post-Brexit system.

69. Pan-EU regulators (food, chemicals etc.) that offer simplified testing regimes for all EU countries.

70. Participation in EU pandemic Early Warning and Response system (EWRS)
 
71. Right to vote and stand in local and European elections in any EU country.

72. Right to communicate with EU institutions in any of 24 official languages.

73. Right to petition the European Parliament on any matter within EU’s fields of activity.
 
74. Support for people with disabilities, including the European Accessibility Act and EU parking card.

75. Right to purchase services online from anywhere in EU at the same price as locals.

76. Bring home anything bought in another EU country without a customs declaration.
 
77. Right to cancel and return any product bought outside of a shop within 14 days.

78. Strong data protection laws such as GDPR, protecting personal data in any format.

79. Right to know what personal data a firm holds on you within a month.

80. Strong right to be forgotten.
 
81. Banks must charge same for euro payments across EU as for equivalent national transactions.

82. Insurance firms can sell products across the EU without being established in every country.

83. Ability to register .eu domain names.
 
84. Enhanced human rights protection through the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union.

85. Broadcasters can obtain a single broadcasting licence valid across the whole of the EU.

86. Regulation and reporting of CO2 emissions in new vans and lorries.
 
88. DiscoverEU passes for free travel by train for 18-year-olds to explore Europe. (These also unlock a range of discounts.)

89. European Solidarity Corps funded opportunities for young people to volunteer and work across Europe.
 
90. European Voluntary Service projects for short-term or long-term volunteering abroad for young people aged 18-30.

91. Long-term loans from the European Investment Bank (EIB) for projects that align with EU goals.
 
92. Creative Europe programme participation for the cultural and creative sectors, and the promotion of cultural diversity.

93. Access to the Connecting Europe Facility (CEF) which supports investment in trans-European networks in the transport, energy and digital sectors. 

94. Participation in the European Citizens' Initiative, allowing citizens to propose new measures directly to the European Commission, subject to accumulating a million signatures.

95. Participation in the CE mark conformity programme. 

Etc.....

Not sure where you copied and pasted this from and I am not going to refute each point one by one.

However an awful lot of these “losses” presuppose that the UK is incapable of producing its own social customer and personal protection.

The funds that you say the UK could receive. Where do you imagine the EU gets the money from to provide these funds? Member states, like formerly the UK perhaps?
 

No 72 is  a belter. The UK  in leaving, have apparently  lost the right to communicate with the EU in Greek, or say Polish should they have preferred.

There is also nothing to preclude cooperation  between the EU and the UK , as a third party in fields such as technology, crime fighting, environmental issues etc.

[P.K.]

1 minute ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Not sure where you copied and pasted this from and I am not going to refute each point one by one.

However an awful lot of these “losses” presuppose that the UK is incapable of producing its own social customer and personal protection.

The funds that you say the UK could receive. Where do you imagine the EU gets the money from to provide these funds? Member states, like formerly the UK perhaps?
 

No 72 is  a belter. The UK  in leaving, have apparently  lost the right to communicate with the EU in Greek, or say Polish should they have preferred.

There is also nothing to preclude cooperation  between the EU and the UK , as a third party in fields such as technology, crime fighting, environmental issues etc.

@The Voice of Reason

How is it you didn't know that the only institution that can make UK law is our own Sovereign Parliament?

You can't get back "self determination" if you never lost it now can you?

Got any more howlers...?

[The Voice of Reason]

36 minutes ago, P.K. said:

@The Voice of Reason

How is it you didn't know that the only institution that can make UK law is our own Sovereign Parliament?

You can't get back "self determination" if you never lost it now can you?

 

This sort of self determination?
 

Primacy of EU law (precedence, supremacy)

The principle of the primacy (also referred to as ‘precedence’ or ‘supremacy’) of European Union (EU) law is based on the idea that where a conflict arises between an aspect of EU law and an aspect of law in an EU Member State (national law), EU law will prevail

[P.K.]

If there was an EU regulation or whatever that we didn't like we had a veto which would kill it stone dead. In other words the above situation should never happen.

How is it you don't know this?

Let's just look at a few basic premises. The UK is a trading nation, or was anyway. You just can't ignore the world's biggest and best trading bloc that sits right on your doorstop. As a member we had frictionless trade. To give up frictionless trade and leaving the Single Market and Customs Union making it more difficult to trade with the EU was just madness. But that's what brexit has done.

There was a lot of talk about a deal like Norway has with the EU. The Norwegian Ambassador pointed out that their deal is like being in the EU in that you have to obey their rules and regulations but you have no say in making them. So your stupid brexit has turned the UK from an EU law maker into a EU law taker and if you don't like it then tough. Idiots.

Any more howlers?