Brexit Penny Dropping?

[The Voice of Reason]

33 minutes ago, John Wright said:

And there you show your true colours. You’re as nasty and perverted as your apparent hero’s.

It’s exactly the same argument as Lineker. It’s the methods, the hate, the scapegoating - as diversionary tactics.

You know, immigration, which the EU never controlled. Blame refugees who come in by irregular means because we don’t have proper pathways. Get all worked up about a few tens of thousands of them, but in the meantime let in another 500,000-750,000 through regular means.

Theres no difference between demonising immigrants and demonising Jews, LGBT, Roma, Irish, mentally ill, etc etc.

While we’re at it.I have never blamed or demonised immigrants, refugees etc. I don’t hate or scapegoat anyone.

Just wanted the UK to have self determination.

 

Edited May 17, 2023 by The Voice of Reason

[John Wright]

11 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

While we’re at it.I have never blamed or demonised immigrants, refugees etc. I don’t hate or scapegoat anyone.

Just wanted the UK to have self determination.

 

But the people who’s Brexit views you appear to favour do promote that.

Self determination? You having a laugh? You don’t want the Scots to have that.

[John Wright]

19 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

You said it was “just like Nazi genocide” which most people would associate with gas chambers, Auschwitz, Belsen etc

 

And the sort of things people like Braverman, Farage, Rees Mogg et all spew leads directly to the social and political environment where that ends up being justified in the minds of otherwise decent people.

I get you can’t/won’t see that. That’s the real problem. There are lots like you.

[woolley]

2 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

While we’re at it.I have never blamed or demonised immigrants, refugees etc. I don’t hate or scapegoat anyone.

Just wanted the UK to have self determination.

 

It reminds me of me here between 3 and 6 years ago. You are banging your head against the wall. They have all the answers. They are right and you are stupid is the bottom line. They are immovably fixed in this view, and so far ahead of you in their infinite wisdom, in their own imagination, that they will become more and more hysterical as they post ever wilder, far out execrable nonsense while claiming that you are the extremist. In the end I did myself a favour. I will only post in this thread now if there is a very specific piece of nonsense to debunk and then straight out again entering into no further tit for tat correspondence. They can wallow in their own bile as much as they like.

[P.K.]

9 hours ago, woolley said:

It reminds me of me here between 3 and 6 years ago. You are banging your head against the wall. They have all the answers. They are right and you are stupid is the bottom line. They are immovably fixed in this view, and so far ahead of you in their infinite wisdom, in their own imagination, that they will become more and more hysterical as they post ever wilder, far out execrable nonsense while claiming that you are the extremist. In the end I did myself a favour. I will only post in this thread now if there is a very specific piece of nonsense to debunk and then straight out again entering into no further tit for tat correspondence. They can wallow in their own bile as much as they like.

@woolley

It's certainly true that the Remain camp have all the facts, aka the realities of brexit that we're all experiencing every day, and the Leave camp have nothing but opinions based mainly on falsehoods and wishful thinking as per the post above.

It's also simply not true that Remainers think that those who voted Leave are all stupid. Because for accuracy you have to add gullibility and xenophobia to the mix...

The recent issue around all the EU regulations put on to the UK statute book by our UK Sovereign Parliament (despite the claims to the contrary of Farage, Gove, Johnson, Woolley etc it's the only institution that can make UK law) allegedly needing to be annulled really does demonstrate the sheer stupidity of brexit.

The headbangers of the ERG, led by intellectual colossus Mark Francois, want them all gone like a latter day Säuberung. Now the UK is a trading nation. It has the world's biggest and best trading bloc on it's doorstep. It was promised by the brexiteers that brexit would make it easier to trade with not only the EU but the rest of the planet. Of course, as reality has shown it was all lies and wishful thinking of the "not thought it through" variety.

It has since been realised that the EU regulations in law around provenance of foodstuffs, standards, H&S and so forth are all a requirement to trade with the EU. Get rid of them and provenance becomes pretty much impossible and therefore so does trade. Just as the Norwegian Ambassador pointed out back before the referendum when he was bemoaning the relationship his country had to have with the EU to trade with them.

Brexit strikes again!

[manxman1980]

16 hours ago, John Wright said:

Self determination? You having a laugh? You don’t want the Scots to have that.

This gets me every time!  Why are Brexiteers so opposed to a referendum on Scottish Independence?  

Those in favour of Scottish Independence want 'sovereignty' for their nation and freedom from a "foreign" (English) Parliament.  Surely those in favour of the UK leaving the EU can recognise this desire?  

It appears not though and suddenly Brexiteers can see the benefits of a Union sharing a common laws, currency, freedom of movement and trade agreements.

[jackwhite]

1 hour ago, manxman1980 said:

This gets me every time!  Why are Brexiteers so opposed to a referendum on Scottish Independence?  

Those in favour of Scottish Independence want 'sovereignty' for their nation and freedom from a "foreign" (English) Parliament.  Surely those in favour of the UK leaving the EU can recognise this desire?  

It appears not though and suddenly Brexiteers can see the benefits of a Union sharing a common laws, currency, freedom of movement and trade agreements.

Like every ingrained opinion, because they want it all their own way.

Look at you wanting justification. You'll get deflection and whataboutery and you'll like it. 😉

[The Voice of Reason]

1 hour ago, manxman1980 said:

This gets me every time!  Why are Brexiteers so opposed to a referendum on Scottish Independence?  

Are you sure that this is actually the case?

Is there any research or evidence to support this view? I’m not saying there isn’t any but I’d be interested to see it.
 

For my part I supported Brexit and don’t have a problem with a referendum on Scottish independence, and Scotland leaving the UK if that is the will of the people. 

However the thing is that such a referendum was held a mere nine years ago, the consensus being that that it was a “once in a generation” event. The result of which was that Scotland voted to remain as part of the UK

We’ve had this argument before and as I have previously suggested the length of a” generation” is considerably more than 9 or 10,or even 15 years

Ah yes you say but we’ve had Brexit since then and the majority of Scots didn’t want it. That’s irrelevant. The result of the Scottish independence referendum in 2014 wasn’t contingent on any particular event happening ( or not happening) in the future. That would make a mockery of any referendum on any issue.

 

You can’t just keep on having referendums a mere few years apart until you get the result you want.

(and that result is looking extremely unlikely for a good long while yet, due to the antics of the SNP)

[woolley]

5 hours ago, P.K. said:

The recent issue around all the EU regulations put on to the UK statute book by our UK Sovereign Parliament (despite the claims to the contrary of Farage, Gove, Johnson, Woolley etc it's the only institution that can make UK law) allegedly needing to be annulled really does demonstrate the sheer stupidity of brexit.

Now the UK is a trading nation. It has the world's biggest and best trading bloc on it's doorstep. It was promised by the brexiteers that brexit would make it easier to trade with not only the EU but the rest of the planet. Of course, as reality has shown it was all lies and wishful thinking of the "not thought it through" variety.

It has since been realised that the EU regulations in law around provenance of foodstuffs, standards, H&S and so forth are all a requirement to trade with the EU. Get rid of them and provenance becomes pretty much impossible and therefore so does trade. Just as the Norwegian Ambassador pointed out back before the referendum when he was bemoaning the relationship his country had to have with the EU to trade with them.

Brexit strikes again!

Of course, I debunked the utter rubbish that the UK Parliament could refuse to accept any EU legislation a couple of weeks ago for the umpteenth time. You even conceded the point then, but I see you are trying to row back on that now. Here you are again, bringing it back repeatedly reheated like an EU treaty that failed to pass a referendum. It's been a lie all along, and it's a lie now.

As for difficulty with trade, yes there are some isolated problems, all due to EU restraints, and naturally we hear a great deal about them because there is an anti-UK agenda being driven, but in the main the cataclysm that we were promised hasn't materialised. The world hasn't come to an end. On the contrary, trade is well above pre-Brexit levels even allowing for inflation. Life has gone on. Most people have moved on.

 

[woolley]

2 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

This gets me every time!  Why are Brexiteers so opposed to a referendum on Scottish Independence?  

Those in favour of Scottish Independence want 'sovereignty' for their nation and freedom from a "foreign" (English) Parliament.  Surely those in favour of the UK leaving the EU can recognise this desire?  

It appears not though and suddenly Brexiteers can see the benefits of a Union sharing a common laws, currency, freedom of movement and trade agreements.

Well I for one am certainly not against the principle of self-determination. If the Scots want independence and vote for it they should have it. My personal opinion on Scotland is that I am against the destruction of the UK because it has been a phenomenally successful and coherent nation state in the island of Great Britain for over 300 years. Obviously the Westminster Parliament is a UK institution in which Scotland is over-represented, as well as having its own Parliament, so it can hardly be called foreign. I strongly believe that the UK is better for everyone, as opposed to the EU which has pretensions to become a pan-continental state, treaty by treaty, by stealth, while reducing legitimate states to the role of little more than regions and their governments to regional councils. You don't know what you had till it's gone.

Edited May 18, 2023 by woolley

[woolley]

1 hour ago, jackwhite said:

Like every ingrained opinion, because they want it all their own way.

Look at you wanting justification. You'll get deflection and whataboutery and you'll like it. 😉

OK, but that cuts both ways. Opinions are entrenched on both sides.

[woolley]

25 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Are you sure that this is actually the case?

Is there any research or evidence to support this view? I’m not saying there isn’t any but I’d be interested to see it.
 

For my part I supported Brexit and don’t have a problem with a referendum on Scottish independence, and Scotland leaving the UK if that is the will of the people. 

However the thing is that such a referendum was held a mere nine years ago, the consensus being that that it was a “once in a generation” event. The result of which was that Scotland voted to remain as part of the UK

We’ve had this argument before and as I have previously suggested the length of a” generation” is considerably more than 9 or 10,or even 15 years

Ah yes you say but we’ve had Brexit since then and the majority of Scots didn’t want it. That’s irrelevant. The result of the Scottish independence referendum in 2014 wasn’t contingent on any particular event happening ( or not happening) in the future. That would make a mockery of any referendum on any issue.

 

You can’t just keep on having referendums a mere few years apart until you get the result you want.

(and that result is looking extremely unlikely for a good long while yet, due to the antics of the SNP)

More than this, the SNP position in the 2014 referendum was that they wanted independence, end of. The fact that it would have removed them from the EU was neither here nor there. No big deal. So fast forward to the campaign for Indyref2, and they say it's all about the EU. Shows them up as a bunch of total chancers. But if they can make the case and the Scots go for it, fair enough. That's democracy.

[manxman1980]

1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Are you sure that this is actually the case?

Currently based on my own interactions with Brexiteer online and in person.  I can't see much actual research or polling having been conducted in this area.

1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said:

For my part I supported Brexit and don’t have a problem with a referendum on Scottish independence, and Scotland leaving the UK if that is the will of the people. 

Fantastic!  Then you agree that they should be allowed a referendum...

1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said:

However the thing is that such a referendum was held a mere nine years ago, the consensus being that that it was a “once in a generation” event. The result of which was that Scotland voted to remain as part of the UK

Ah... You are going to take refuge behind this old chestnut failing to acknowledge that membership of the EU was, and remains, very important for the majority of eligible voters in Scotland.  

Now I await the argument that an independent Scotland applying to re-join the EU would be to then give up that independence.  The reality is that an independent Scotland would be able to do whatever it sees fit based on the mandate held by their Government.

[manxman1980]

56 minutes ago, woolley said:

Well I for one am certainly not against the principle of self-determination. If the Scots want independence and vote for it they should have it. My personal opinion on Scotland is that I am against the destruction of the UK because it has been a phenomenally successful and coherent nation state in the island of Great Britain for over 300 years. Obviously the Westminster Parliament is a UK institution in which Scotland is over-represented, as well as having its own Parliament, so it can hardly be called foreign. I strongly believe that the UK is better for everyone, as opposed to the EU which has pretensions to become a pan-continental state, treaty by treaty, by stealth, while reducing legitimate states to the role of little more than regions and their governments to regional councils. You don't know what you had till it's gone.

Interesting that you flit between the Island of Great Britain and the United Kingdom.  Don't forget that Eire left the United Kingdom and is doing pretty well for itself (albeit that they have had many difficult years as well).

52 minutes ago, woolley said:

More than this, the SNP position in the 2014 referendum was that they wanted independence, end of. The fact that it would have removed them from the EU was neither here nor there. No big deal. So fast forward to the campaign for Indyref2, and they say it's all about the EU. Shows them up as a bunch of total chancers. But if they can make the case and the Scots go for it, fair enough. That's democracy.

Sure, but the pro-Union campaign used EU membership as a way to persuade voters not to vote in favour of Scottish Independence.

A few years later many of those on the pro-Union side campaigned successfully for the UK as a whole to leave the EU.

Therefore there has been a significant change since the Independence Referendum that fundamentally alters the equation for voters in the independence referendum.  

If you are pro-Union then now is probably the best time to allow a second independence referendum and clearly define due to the turmoil that the SNP now finds itself in and the opinion polls showing a decline in support for independence.  It would also be an ideal time to establish further rules about the timings between such referendums giving the late of definition currently in place. 

[The Voice of Reason]

11 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

Currently based on my own interactions with Brexiteer online and in person.  I can't see much actual research or polling having been conducted in this area.

So you have no real evidence to back up your assertion that Brexiteers want to deny Scotland independence?

Just your own interactions .

As a Brexit supporter I’ve interacted with you online and told you that I wouldn’t have a problem with Scottish independence if that was the will of the people. 

Your claim is a bit flimsy don’t you think?