Brexit Penny Dropping?

[woolley]

@La Colombe (I quoted your post but for some reason it didn't appear!)

 

A few aspects to this. The numbers have been declining since long before Brexit.

You can probably trace the peak to somewhere between the turn of the millennium and the financial crisis. I note that the article you link actually mentions 2008 as a point from which ownership in France has declined. To be fair, there are some ramifications of Brexit involved too, such as the 90 days in 180 rule, but in reality that's sufficient time for most of us who have property on the continent. We never stayed longer, even when we could. If you actually want to live there, you can still apply for residency as before and pay your taxes there. So Brexit is a minor factor in this, but the Guardian makes it the headline as would be expected from the Guardian with its known agenda. The big drivers in the decline are demographics, having the means and changing habits - having the inclination.

From around 1990, post-war generations who had done very nicely for themselves financially started to invest their ample rewards in property and places where they'd spent their holidays. They had previously been the trailblazers taking continental holidays as kids in the first place. A phenomenon akin to the influx of codgers who came to the Isle of Man in the 70s to relive the holidays of their youth.

For the best part of 20 years, younger boomers then some Gen Xers followed the trend. By the mid-2000s (decade) though, many of the early adopters were getting old and ill or dead, and it wasn't quite so idyllic. Building in the hot spots was carrying on apace, and new entrants like Scandinavians and rich Russians started to buy the newer developments. The promoters throughout the Med thought the jackpot would never end, but eventually, like every gold rush in history, it did. The whole market became wildly overheated and there was too much supply chasing too little demand, particularly after the financial, banking and euro crises. Personally we've seen property values double and halve more than once. Luckily, we bought to enjoy rather than to make money, so that's never been a great concern to us.

In more recent years, younger people in general have not lived in such times of plenty as their predecessors did. They've had less disposable income, struggled to buy even a primary property, and it's not been such a no-brainer for them to to dash off and buy a house abroad just to use now and then. They haven't been so lucky. Likewise, many buyers who went abroad permanently are now stuck there in a sickly old age because property values haven't kept pace with those in Britain, and though they'd like to come home they can't afford to. Then there are the extreme weather issues and political uncertainty to add to the mix. It's just not such a pretty picture as it once was.

Those who do still have the wherewithal to purchase a second home are drawn to places like Cornwall and The Lakes (but pretty much anywhere with the likes of Airbnb) which are seen as a more stable investment without the foreign currency risk. As I said at the top. Many, many aspects.

To some extent I do share your discomfort about people owning property in other countries that remains empty for part of the time, but we decided that we had to be brave, face up to and overcome our discomfort. Seriously, many of the properties in question are built specifically as second homes for foreign buyers and are not in locations where locals would choose to buy even if they had the funds. Also, foreign owners put a lot of currency into the local economy, from the initial capital purchase to everything spent living in the community over the years and engaging local tradespeople for supplies,  alterations, maintenance etc. So it's not all a one way street. But, yes, I do see and share the conflict. Perhaps local authorities should be able to set a quota on the number of holiday homes under their jurisdiction. I would not be averse to higher local taxes for the privilege either.

 

Edited July 23, 2023 by woolley

[The Voice of Reason]

On 6/23/2023 at 11:45 PM, P.K. said:

@Garteth T

 

Secondly the only institution that can make UK law is our own UK Sovereign Parliament. It was and remains the only institution that can do this. In the VERY unlikely event that the democratically elected EU parliament tried to push through anything totally unpalatable the HoC would simply vote it down. This would have given the Commission a massive problem to solve which if they didn't Article 50 could be triggered. As this never happened in 40 years or so it was very unlikely to happen in the future.

 

Like the UK having a referendum on continued membership of the EU never happening in 40 years?

Making it unlikely to happen?

Edited July 23, 2023 by The Voice of Reason
Addition of second para

[La Colombe]

6 hours ago, La Colombe said:

Oh, and by the way, 8.00 pm tonight, BBC4, perhaps rekindle a sense of pan European cooperation and optimism. Or resentment! Lol... 

Ah! The subversive subtlety of the Proms! How did Scotland vote in the referendum again? Lol...

[The Voice of Reason]

22 minutes ago, La Colombe said:

Ah! The subversive subtlety of the Proms! How did Scotland vote in the referendum again? Lol...

That’s not the question.

The question is how did the UK vote in the referendum?

(And as a side issue how did Scotland  vote in the referendum about Scotland leaving the UK?)

[La Colombe]

7 hours ago, La Colombe said:

Oh, and by the way, 8.00 pm tonight, BBC4, perhaps rekindle a sense of pan European cooperation and optimism. Or resentment! Lol... 

That was very good don't you agree? 

[manxman1980]

9 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

(And as a side issue how did Scotland  vote in the referendum about Scotland leaving the UK?)

How many times must we go over this? 

During the Scottish Independence referendum the voters (which included EU Citizens living in Scotland) were told repeatedly that the cost of leaving the UK was also being forced out of the EU. 

The population in Scotland decided, based on those facts, voted to stay in the UK.

Fast forward a few years to the Brexit referendum and Scotland's population votes to remain. 

It is the population in England and Wales voting to leave that carries the vote.  Scotland and Norther Ireland are now dragged along for the ride.

[The Voice of Reason]

56 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

How many times must we go over this?

Seemingly forever.

Say I live in a street with 100 others.

In a democratic referendum of the  101, 50 vote to remain, 51 vote to leave.

Do the 50 Remainers get to remain and the 51 leavers to leave?

No, it doesn’t work like that.

The 50 that voted remain are “dragged along for the ride” as you put it

[HeliX]

1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Seemingly forever.

Say I live in a street with 100 others.

In a democratic referendum of the  101, 50 vote to remain, 51 vote to leave.

Do the 50 Remainers get to remain and the 51 leavers to leave?

No, it doesn’t work like that.

The 50 that voted remain are “dragged along for the ride” as you put it

Analogies are maybe not your strong suit.

[manxman1980]

@The Voice of Reason

The population of Scotland were told that they would lose membership of the EU if they voted for independence from the rest of the UK.  The vote went in favour of remaining in the UK and the EU.

A few years later the EU referendum takes place.  Scotland and Northern Ireland both vote to remain bur England and Wales vote to leave.  

The leave vote wins by a relatively small majority but that is democracy.  That is accepted but surely you can understand why the Scottish voters would feel let down?  If they had known the UK would leave the EU a few years later then they probably would have voted for independence from the UK.

It has gone quiet at the moment but I would not be surprised to see further calls for the break up of the United Kingdom.

[woolley]

24 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

@The Voice of Reason

It has gone quiet at the moment 

Hasn't it just? SNP afraid of becoming political prisoners of the evil British state. 🤣

[P.K.]

2 minutes ago, woolley said:

SNP afraid of becoming political prisoners of the evil British state. 🤣

With the way they are consistantly lying to the public and the HoC, removing age-old civil liberties, using "voter id" to try and gain advantage at the polls, demonising asylum seekers and treating them like criminals etc etc your statement above is becoming ever more truthful...

[The Voice of Reason]

2 hours ago, HeliX said:

Analogies are maybe not your strong suit.

Do you not think so?

I thought it demonstrated quite clearly the absurdity of what Manxman 1980 was posting.

Understanding is perhaps not your strongest suit

[manxman1980]

1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Do you not think so?

I thought it demonstrated quite clearly the absurdity of what Manxman 1980 was posting.

Understanding is perhaps not your strongest suit

You missed the point I was making.

Your analogy does not work when you have to factor in two referendums.

One was about Scottish Independence and contained to those resident in Scotland although a major factor was membership of the EU.  If you recall the EU, and Spain in particular,  were not keen on an independent Scotland remaining a member of the EU or easily rejoining because of the implications for other separatists movements such as the Basque Separatists.

The second extended was specifically on the EU and extended to the rest of the UK.

Your silly analogy of the street simply does not work in that context.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

2 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

@The Voice of Reason

The population of Scotland were told that they would lose membership of the EU if they voted for independence from the rest of the UK.  The vote went in favour of remaining in the UK and the EU.

A few years later the EU referendum takes place.  Scotland and Northern Ireland both vote to remain bur England and Wales vote to leave.  

The leave vote wins by a relatively small majority but that is democracy.  That is accepted but surely you can understand why the Scottish voters would feel let down?  If they had known the UK would leave the EU a few years later then they probably would have voted for independence from the UK.

It has gone quiet at the moment but I would not be surprised to see further calls for the break up of the United Kingdom.

Per your first paragraph the vote wasn’t in favour of “ remaining in the UK and the EU”, it was in favour of remaining in the UK and all the benefits that the voters thought that brings. Yes some may perceive EU membership as one of those benefits but there were many other reasons Scots considered in voting to maintain the status quo.

Second paragraph you.postulate that if the Scottish voters had known that in the future the UK would leave the EU they probably would have voted for independence. I’m afraid “ probably” doesn’t cut it here.

Besides which circumstances change all the time. Who amongst us hasn’t splashed out on a nice expensive piece of clothing, only to see it reduced in a sale a few weeks later. It’s no good wailing “ well if I’d known it was going to be cheaper in a few weeks I wouldn’t have bought it when I did “ ( another analogy for you Helix). Would you feel “ let down” in such circumstances?  It’s a bit like, “ if I’d known that horse was not going to win I wouldn’t have bet on it. Can we re run the race please?

You have to act or vote as you wish having regard to the situation at the time, although of course you can factor into your decision any foreseeable changes you may think you’ve identified 

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by The Voice of Reason
Minor,

[La Colombe]

18 hours ago, La Colombe said:

That was very good don't you agree? 

I'll take it you didn't bother then? Ah well, your loss! Anyone remember the ignorant oafs Farage, Widdecombe et al waving their silly little union flags whilst turning their backs on the European Assembly? Maximum cringe value! What a contrast!