Brexit Penny Dropping?

[La Colombe]

Ugh!

 

 

[woolley]

29 minutes ago, La Colombe said:

Ugh!

 

 

They're doing the Poznan, aren't they? To be fair, the EU had been complacently taking the mickey out of Eurosceptics for years, never for a moment thinking the UK would have the opportunity to escape.

[The Voice of Reason]

30 minutes ago, La Colombe said:

Ugh!

 

 

Bravo!!

[P.K.]

3 hours ago, woolley said:

They're doing the Poznan, aren't they? To be fair, the EU had been complacently taking the mickey out of Eurosceptics for years, never for a moment thinking the UK would have the opportunity to escape.

I thought the Article 50 clause had been around since 2007?

Dear me. Their crass and petty turning their backs really does reinforce just how much the "Little Englander" mindset is alive and well and making us all look stupid. Talk about diminishing the UK in the eyes of the world.

Notice they didn't turn their backs on their EU stipend mind...

[woolley]

59 minutes ago, P.K. said:

I thought the Article 50 clause had been around since 2007?

Dear me. Their crass and petty turning their backs really does reinforce just how much the "Little Englander" mindset is alive and well and making us all look stupid. Talk about diminishing the UK in the eyes of the world.

Not at all. Being a subordinate part of a pan-continental megastate would do that. Elements in the US administration don't like Brexit, but they would never sign their country up to half the nonsense that binds EU member states. Article 50 was around, sure, but God forbid they ever expected it to be used.

[John Wright]

29 minutes ago, woolley said:

Not at all. Being a subordinate part of a pan-continental megastate would do that. Elements in the US administration don't like Brexit, but they would never sign their country up to half the nonsense that binds EU member states. Article 50 was around, sure, but God forbid they ever expected it to be used.

But each of the states in the USA has signed up for  that and more, and no get out claiuse.

[woolley]

4 minutes ago, John Wright said:

But each of the states in the USA has signed up for  that and more, and no get out claiuse.

Ah. So this is the ideal EU then? The United States of Europe. Thought so.

America is a coherent nation state founded in 1776 by 13 former colonies with a common language. The states were relatively young and they grew up together as others joined and have prospered over 250 years. Different kettle of fish entirely to Europe with its multiplicity of ancient nations and languages.

My point is that the USA as a long established state would not submit to conditions such as those involved in the EU Treaties. It will not even concede supremacy to any international court above its own.

[manxman1980]

9 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Per your first paragraph the vote wasn’t in favour of “ remaining in the UK and the EU”, it was in favour of remaining in the UK and all the benefits that the voters thought that brings. Yes some may perceive EU membership as one of those benefits but there were many other reasons Scots considered in voting to maintain the status quo.

The "better together" campaign went hell for leather pushing the benefits of EU Membership and the possibility of losing the Pound Sterling as currency. 

It was where the term "project fear" came from...

9 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Second paragraph you.postulate that if the Scottish voters had known that in the future the UK would leave the EU they probably would have voted for independence. I’m afraid “ probably” doesn’t cut it here.

Besides which circumstances change all the time. Who amongst us hasn’t splashed out on a nice expensive piece of clothing, only to see it reduced in a sale a few weeks later. It’s no good wailing “ well if I’d known it was going to be cheaper in a few weeks I wouldn’t have bought it when I did “ ( another analogy for you Helix). Would you feel “ let down” in such circumstances?  It’s a bit like, “ if I’d known that horse was not going to win I wouldn’t have bet on it. 

Sounds a lot like some who voted for Brexit and are now realising that there are no sunlit uplands nor unicorns.

In fact they have found there only to be a cesspit of Tory crap and that the unicorns were in fact Donkeys with an ice cream cone stuck to their heads.

[manxman1980]

@The Voice of Reason and others..

The penny has just dropped for me...

I have been struggling to understand why so many Brexit supporters seem to be anti-Scottish independence.

Had Scotland become independent and been forced out of the EU then the remaining parts of the UK would have had a close up view of what life would be like outside the EU.

The pain Scotland would have gone through would be like looking into the future of the UK outside the EU.  That would have seen a drop in Euro-scepticism and meant that Brexit would never happen. 

Brexiteers must subconsciously realise this otherwise they all suffer from cognitive dissonance.

[woolley]

8 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

@The Voice of Reason and others..

The penny has just dropped for me...

I have been struggling to understand why so many Brexit supporters seem to be anti-Scottish independence.

Had Scotland become independent and been forced out of the EU then the remaining parts of the UK would have had a close up view of what life would be like outside the EU.

The pain Scotland would have gone through would be like looking into the future of the UK outside the EU.  That would have seen a drop in Euro-scepticism and meant that Brexit would never happen. 

Brexiteers must subconsciously realise this otherwise they all suffer from cognitive dissonance.

I'm not so much against Scottish independence. It's more that I support the UK and want to see it prosper. However, I do believe in democracy, so if that's what they want, that's what they should have. As a side issue, the position of the SNP on the EU is interesting. In 2014 they viewed the prospect of being outside the EU as being no big deal compared with the prize of independence. Post-Brexit, they've done the full handbrake turn on that, and Indyref2 is framed as all about the EU.

I'm not sure about this "pain" you see peculiar to the UK. The whole of Europe is suffering from similar problems in the context of global issues today. Issues arising out of Brexit are a minor part of the whole picture.

[manxman1980]

7 hours ago, woolley said:

I'm not sure about this "pain" you see peculiar to the UK. The whole of Europe is suffering from similar problems in the context of global issues today. Issues arising out of Brexit are a minor part of the whole picture.

Yes, but...

The UK is suffering much worse than the EU members.  

[Zarley]

8 hours ago, woolley said:

The states were relatively young and they grew up together as others joined and have prospered over 250 years. 

Not to be pedantic but... the United States of America is technically 247* years old, not "over 250". 

Ok, maybe I am being pedantic. Sue me (It's the American way!)

*that makes me feel old. I was thirteen when the bicentennial was celebrated. Heady days of Silly Love Song and One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Seems like it was only yesterday but yet ancient history, all at the same time.

[P.K.]

9 hours ago, woolley said:

Not at all. Being a subordinate part of a pan-continental megastate would do that. Elements in the US administration don't like Brexit, but they would never sign their country up to half the nonsense that binds EU member states. Article 50 was around, sure, but God forbid they ever expected it to be used.

Had the EU been stupid enough to try and force-feed unpalatable legislation through the HoC then the MP's would simply have voted it down. This would have given the EU a massive problem. They either give up on it or the UK would trigger Art 50. In any event if the attempt was crass enough the UK would almost certainly not have been alone in this.

Which is why it never happened.

High time the brexiteers stopped trying to convince themselves and others that the EU is run by evil goblins intent on world domination and actually owned the clusterfuck that is their precious brexit.

[John Wright]

1 minute ago, P.K. said:

Had the EU been stupid enough to try and force-feed unpalatable legislation through the HoC then the MP's would simply have voted it down. This would have given the EU a massive problem. They either give up on it or the UK would trigger Art 50. In any event if the attempt was crass enough the UK would almost certainly not have been alone in this.

Which is why it never happened.

High time the brexiteers stopped trying to convince themselves and others that the EU is run by evil goblins intent on world domination and actually owned the clusterfuck that is their precious brexit.

If the UK didn’t transpose into law something that the rest of the EU had agreed upon, and it was something where the UK didn’t have a veto over, then the Commission would have started infringement proceedings, which take forever and have a financial penalty outcome. It’d never have come to forcing through, the EU never had that power. Would it have led to Art 50? Depends on the issue and the infringement penalties and whether or not a compromise couldn’t be reached in the years it would take.

The problem with you, and Woolley and VoR is that ( like many remainders and brexiteers ) you took, and continue to take, such extreme positions, ones the bear little or no relation to political or economic reality, that your arguments are irrelevant.

Yes, I’d rather we had stayed. Yes I think it was the greatest act of economic and social self harm a country ( and in particular a small clique of morally corrupt and bankrupt ideologues ) could impose on itself. But we are out, that won’t change, not for a generation.

We now need to stop the fighting for unreasonable and unattainable positions. We need to be realistic about the need for smoother, less bureaucratic free trade in goods and services, maintaining equivalency, even free movement ( based on short term seeking work and long term working - something UK could always have done, but didn’t ).

Too much time is wasted on the arguments of the past and not enough time is spent in trying to resolve the problems of the pure cliff edge hard Brexit.

And, of course, and Woolley has shown his true colours in the begging topic, the real struggle is moving on to that of protecting from the excesses of the far right, the ultra nationalists, the authoritarians, who have no regard for the rule of law. And it’s a Europe wide, even a world wide struggle. One in which the minorities are demonised and at risk of losing protections fought for long and hard.

[The Voice of Reason]

12 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

@The Voice of Reason and others..

The penny has just dropped for me...

I have been struggling to understand why so many Brexit supporters seem to be anti-Scottish independence.

Had Scotland become independent and been forced out of the EU then the remaining parts of the UK would have had a close up view of what life would be like outside the EU.

The pain Scotland would have gone through would be like looking into the future of the UK outside the EU.  That would have seen a drop in Euro-scepticism and meant that Brexit would never happen. 

Brexiteers must subconsciously realise this otherwise they all suffer from cognitive dissonance.

Couple of points.

I think you overestimate the importance of the EU membership / non membership issue in relation to the Scottish independence vote.

It’s like those who assert that the immigration issue was the major factor which led to the Brexit vote. Sure there are some for whom it would have been a consideration but sovereignty was the major issue.

The immigration thing is just used as a weak excuse to somehow label Brexiteers as some sort of racists.

Secondly I don’t think your assumption that many Brexiteers are anti Scottish independence. Some will be , others not but I’m not sure there is such a correlation there.I’m not one way or the other. I don’t believe independence would have been in Scotlands best economic interests but it was for Scotland to decide if they wanted independence,  just like it was for the UK to decide they wanted to leave the EU

Edited July 25, 2023 by The Voice of Reason