Brexit Penny Dropping?

[manxman1980]

@The Voice of Reason so sovereignty wasn't an important issue in the Scottish Referendum? 

I have heard very few Brexiteers support an IndyRef2.  Typically the response is that it was a once in a generation vote and they should now accept being largely governed from Westminster. 

The Hero of Brexit, Nigel Farage, made it clear that had the EU Referendum gone the other way by the same margin then it would be far from over as far as he was concerned. 

Scotland voted 55.3% to remaining in the UK and 44.7% in favour of independence.   

(EU Referendum results were 51.89% leave and 48.11% remain for comparison.)

Those are some pretty close results that could easily sway either way depending on the mood of a nation.

[P.K.]

1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said:

I think you overestimate the importance of the EU membership / non membership issue in relation to the Scottish independence vote.

It’s like those who assert that the immigration issue was the major factor which led to the Brexit vote. Sure there are some for whom it would have been a consideration but sovereignty was the major issue.

The immigration thing is just used as a weak excuse to somehow label Brexiteers as some sort of racists.

You seem to have ignored the bleeding obvious.

In the brexit referendum in Scotland 38% voted Leave and 62% voted to Remain.

Tellingly that meant that all 32 Scottish Councils voted to Remain ie the whole bloody country ffs!

How could the sovereignty we never lost be the major driver of the Leave vote...?

Of course everyone accepts that not all those who voted Leave are racists. However on the flip side all those who are xenophobes would have voted for Leave. Why would they not?

Sizing the issue is a problem. On national tv Naga Munchetty stated that she faced racism every day. In my experience that's a common refrain. The recent footage of a coloured lady being detained by police for not buying a bus ticket is a case in point. Frankly I think that the label "institutionally racist" will be one the police will struggle to throw off behaving as they do.

Of course, you could always take a survey. Lots of folks with clipboards descending on a town like Boston, Lincs and asking the question "Did racism influence your vote in the EU referendum?" or similar. Of course, there's liable to be a pretty high casualty list but I suspect the result will be a very round number.

One thing I find quite galling is that I'm sure that with the result being so close if you could remove the racist vote Remain would have won easily...

[woolley]

7 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

Yes, but...

The UK is suffering much worse than the EU members.  

No it isn't. A little more perhaps, but some EU countries have had higher inflation than the UK has. Global interest rates have risen comparably. But Brexit wasn't fundamentally an issue of economics and trade anyway. It was one of self-determination. But we've done all of that to death, and it's 7 years ago.

[John Wright]

Just now, woolley said:

done all of that to death, and it's 7 years ago.

Must be time for another referendum then. Elections come around at least once every 5 years.

[woolley]

7 hours ago, Zarley said:

Not to be pedantic but... the United States of America is technically 247* years old, not "over 250". 

Ok, maybe I am being pedantic. Sue me (It's the American way!)

*that makes me feel old. I was thirteen when the bicentennial was celebrated. Heady days of Silly Love Song and One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Seems like it was only yesterday but yet ancient history, all at the same time.

Not to be pedantic either..... but I said "prospered over 250 years" in the sense of "during" and not "FOR over 250 years" in the sense of "in excess of". It looked a bit better than "prospered over 247 years", that's all.

[woolley]

3 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Must be time for another referendum then. Elections come around at least once every 5 years.

Dream on. The people who own the country have it back. They won't be making that mistake again.

[woolley]

6 hours ago, John Wright said:

The problem with you, and Woolley and VoR is that ( like many remainders and brexiteers ) you took, and continue to take, such extreme positions, ones the bear little or no relation to political or economic reality, that your arguments are irrelevant.

No. You are so busy self-righteously pointing out the shortcomings of others that you never look in the mirror.

[John Wright]

3 minutes ago, woolley said:

Dream on. The people who own the country have it back. They won't be making that mistake again.

Hahahahaha. I agree referenda are a mistake, as is fist past the post. Does your view extend to elections generally?

[John Wright]

Just now, woolley said:

No. You are so busy self-righteously pointing out the shortcomings of others that you never look in the mirror.

You need to learn to read and comprehend. You portray me totally falsely in terms of Brexit.

However you dig your position ever more firmly into the far right, neo fascist, authoritarian and libertarian positions that you show up where Brexit is leading, unless the electorate wake up and take back control from the minority.

[woolley]

13 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Hahahahaha. I agree referenda are a mistake, as is fist past the post. Does your view extend to elections generally?

No, but I don't think they change things a great deal, frankly. Corbyn might have tried, but he was never going to get near to power. If he had it could have been very interesting.

[woolley]

13 minutes ago, John Wright said:

You need to learn to read and comprehend. You portray me totally falsely in terms of Brexit.

However you dig your position ever more firmly into the far right, neo fascist, authoritarian and libertarian positions that you show up where Brexit is leading, unless the electorate wake up and take back control from the minority.

This is happening all over Europe, and it's nothing to do with Brexit. You have your eyes closed. You just repeat these hackneyed tropes of far right, neo fascist, etc. because they invoke the bogeyman and have been used effectively by the liberal left to frighten people and shut down reasoned debate for decades. Just for the avoidance of doubt, acting to remove foreigners undertaking criminal activity from the country is not the road to the gas chambers.

And you telling me to read and comprehend is priceless. You're the deafest most obstinate person on here by a mile.

[Roxanne]

25 minutes ago, woolley said:

acting to remove foreigners undertaking criminal activity from the country is not the road to the gas chambers.

To be fair, wasn't that how it started in Germany? And they weren't even criminals.

[woolley]

6 minutes ago, Roxanne said:

To be fair, wasn't that how it started in Germany? And they weren't even criminals.

Hmmmm. So therefore dealing with criminality will always, of necessity, end in the holocaust? Is that a sensible posit? I don't think so.

[Roxanne]

1 minute ago, woolley said:

Hmmmm. So therefore dealing with criminality will always, of necessity, end in the holocaust? Is that a sensible posit? I don't think so.

I didn't say that.

 

[woolley]

11 minutes ago, Roxanne said:

I didn't say that.

 

Where were you going with it then? Why did you raise the spectre of Hitler's Germany in relation to this? Were you saying it might end there? It's the sort of thing that gets lazily trotted out at the mention of any action perceived to go against liberal levels of tolerance that have become endemic.

I am advocating taking steps aimed at stopping criminality and deporting any alien offenders who prey on society. I am not targeting that at any particular minority, and nor am I in favour of exterminating or persecuting anyone.