Brexit Penny Dropping?

[The Voice of Reason]

4 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

No still get same message “ You’ve reached your free article limit in our app” even when accessing the Guardian website via Google. I’ll uninstall the app see if that helps.

That seems to have worked. Going through browser now it is as per Manxman1980 post of Tuesday 6:50 am.

Thanks all

[P.K.]

7 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

That seems to have worked. Going through browser now it is as per Manxman1980 post of Tuesday 6:50 am.

Thanks all

Do you pay for the Telegraph?

[La Colombe]

Terrific news. The UK is to rejoin the EU's Horizon project. 

[The Voice of Reason]

8 hours ago, La Colombe said:

Terrific news. The UK is to rejoin the EU's Horizon project. 

Good news indeed. 
Where such projects  are of mutual benefit then the UK and the EU should work together.

 

[La Colombe]

Yeah, the sooner the UK rejoins the Single Market and Customs Union, the better. Only a matter of time really. 

[John Wright]

37 minutes ago, La Colombe said:

Yeah, the sooner the UK rejoins the Single Market and Customs Union, the better.

@VOICE OF REASON that would definitely be for the mutual benefit of both UK and EU.

There was never any benefit to the UK from Brexit

[The Voice of Reason]

52 minutes ago, John Wright said:

@VOICE OF REASON that would definitely be for the mutual benefit of both UK and EU.

There was never any benefit to the UK from Brexit

This Horizon project is a prime example of a Brexit benefit. The UK can collaborate on projects of mutual benefit without being forced into participating, and funding, other areas.

It all goes back to our old friend “sovereignty” and the ability to make your own choices 

 

[John Wright]

2 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

This Horizon project is a prime example of a Brexit benefit. The UK can collaborate on projects of mutual benefit without being forced into participating, and funding, other areas.

It all goes back to our old friend “sovereignty” and the ability to make your own choices 

 

As you know, sovereignty is illusory. There are always constraints on scope for manoeuvre.

And as UK was always able to withdraw sovereignty was never limited. It was always a choice, right or wrong.

Overall benefit is not just judged in £ s d, ever. And as Horizon associates UK will never be able to get out more than it puts in, and might get out less. Before Brexit UK got much more out of the programme than it put in.

Im at a loss as to how the last 30 months of not being in Horizon and the fact that UK will now, probably, be a net contributor to Horizon is an improvement on what we had.

[P.K.]

1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said:

This Horizon project is a prime example of a Brexit benefit. The UK can collaborate on projects of mutual benefit without being forced into participating, and funding, other areas.

It all goes back to our old friend “sovereignty” and the ability to make your own choices 

Ah yes, the illusion of "sovereignty" which due to a kind of group denialism is much loved by brexiteers everywhere. It's their go to excuse for the entire folly that is brexit...

Let's inject some realism into the whole Horizon "arrangement" shall we...?

We used to be members of the EU and we paid about £10bn net per year for tariff free access to their huge single market, membership of their customs union, membership of Copernicus and Horizon, co-operative security services, the European space programme, free movement to live work and travel in 27 other countries etc etc.

Sunak hails ‘right deal for country’ as UK rejoins EU Horizon project

Scientists welcome long-anticipated deal to return to £85bn science research programme

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2023/sep/07/horizon-brexit-eu-science-rishi-sunak

The European Commission said the UK would contribute about £2.6bn on average a year to Horizon and Copernicus, with the UK’s contributions due to start from January 2024.

So £2.6 bn, or 26% of the amount we used to pay for everything. And Sunak thinks that's a good deal

The totally stupid and completely unnecessary brexit strikes again!

Had a good laugh at this nonsense:

UK’s Horizon deal with EU ‘could help stem Channel migrant crossings’

Officials believe improving relations between London and Brussels may lead to new partnership with bloc’s border force

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/07/uk-horizon-deal-eu-help-stem-channel-migrant-crossings/

There's always been an air of desperation from the Daily Wail, the Express, the Sun and the Telegraph to big up anything with even the most tenuous connection to brexit and "stopping the boats". But this rather does miss the point by a few parsecs of re-joining the worlds biggest research project that we stupidly left..

[The Voice of Reason]

25 minutes ago, P.K. said:

Ah yes, the illusion of "sovereignty" which due to a kind of group denialism is much loved by brexiteers everywhere. It's their go to excuse for the entire folly that is brexit...

Let's inject some realism into the whole Horizon "arrangement" shall we...?

We used to be members of the EU and we paid about £10bn net per year for tariff free access to their huge single market, membership of their customs union, membership of Copernicus and Horizon, co-operative security services, the European space programme, free movement to live work and travel in 27 other countries etc etc.

Sunak hails ‘right deal for country’ as UK rejoins EU Horizon project

Scientists welcome long-anticipated deal to return to £85bn science research programme

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2023/sep/07/horizon-brexit-eu-science-rishi-sunak

The European Commission said the UK would contribute about £2.6bn on average a year to Horizon and Copernicus, with the UK’s contributions due to start from January 2024.

So £2.6 bn, or 26% of the amount we used to pay for everything. And Sunak thinks that's a good deal

The totally stupid and completely unnecessary brexit strikes again!

Had a good laugh at this nonsense:

UK’s Horizon deal with EU ‘could help stem Channel migrant crossings’

Officials believe improving relations between London and Brussels may lead to new partnership with bloc’s border force

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/07/uk-horizon-deal-eu-help-stem-channel-migrant-crossings/

There's always been an air of desperation from the Daily Wail, the Express, the Sun and the Telegraph to big up anything with even the most tenuous connection to brexit and "stopping the boats". But this rather does miss the point by a few parsecs of re-joining the worlds biggest research project that we stupidly left..

Couple of items you chose not to highlight which alters the maths quite significantly.
 

Under the agreement struck Thursday, the UK was handed a £688 million discount to compensate for the three years for which it was locked out of the scheme.

Britain will pay in around £2.2 billion into the scheme, which is the world’s largest research programme and involves some 40 countries. There is a “clawback mechanism” that will enable the Government to receive cash back if it pays in more than 16 per cent than it receives back.

[P.K.]

13 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Under the agreement struck Thursday, the UK was handed a £688 million discount to compensate for the three years for which it was locked out of the scheme.

Britain will pay in around £2.2 billion into the scheme, which is the world’s largest research programme and involves some 40 countries. There is a “clawback mechanism” that will enable the Government to receive cash back if it pays in more than 16 per cent than it receives back.

Source?

Judging by the wording it's the Telegraph...

Did you read the Guardian piece? In case you didn't here is their explanation of the so-called "locked out" cause:

"The UK was locked out of the Horizon programme for three years after a tit-for-tat row over the Northern Ireland Brexit trading arrangements. Lord Frost negotiated an associate membership – available for non-EU countries – in December 2020, but the deal was never ratified due to the dispute over Northern Ireland...."

Now as then this new deal has yet to be ratified by the EU member states. After all, they are a democracy...

Brexit strikes again!

[The Voice of Reason]

29 minutes ago, P.K. said:

Source?

Judging by the wording it's the Telegraph...

Yes it’s the Telegraph. You quoted the article from which it came above.

Do you not read what you are posting? Might save you some embarrassment if you did!

Anyway are you saying the UK was not handed this £688 million discount ? It was just the Telegraph making it all up

And this from the BBC ( who also probably make stuff up because they are not the Guardian):-

“The UK is to rejoin the EU's flagship scientific research scheme, Horizon, the government has announced.

UK-based scientists and institutions will be able to apply for money from the £81bn (€95bn) fund from today. “

So taking all that  ( clawback mechanism etc )into consideration,  the net input from the UK would appear to be a fraction of the £2.6 bn you are quoting 

There may possibly not be a net input.

Edited September 8, 2023 by The Voice of Reason
Addition of last sentence

[P.K.]

6 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Yes it’s the Telegraph. You quoted the article from which it came above.

Do you not read what you are posting? Might save you some embarrassment if you did!

The Guardian makes every effort to ensure it's telling the  truth. So I'm never embarrassed quoting it.

So, who to believe? The Guardian that never suffers from owner induced editorial interference or the Telegraph that was purchased by the Barclay brothers in 2004 purely to diss the EU by publishing any old rubbish whether it was true or not...?

No contest.

Folks tend to read a newspaper that's in keeping with how they think. I noted you were complaining about access to the Guardian recently and I thought that there might still be some hope for you? But in retrospect I think you should stick with the "UK’s Horizon deal with EU could help stem Channel migrant crossings" Telegraph and I'll stick with the UK's most trusted newspaper...

[The Voice of Reason]

2 hours ago, P.K. said:

The Guardian makes every effort to ensure it's telling the  truth. So I'm never embarrassed quoting it.

So, who to believe? The Guardian that never suffers from owner induced editorial interference or the Telegraph that was purchased by the Barclay brothers in 2004 purely to diss the EU by publishing any old rubbish whether it was true or not...?

No contest.

Folks tend to read a newspaper that's in keeping with how they think. I noted you were complaining about access to the Guardian recently and I thought that there might still be some hope for you? But in retrospect I think you should stick with the "UK’s Horizon deal with EU could help stem Channel migrant crossings" Telegraph and I'll stick with the UK's most trusted newspaper...

In all my years on MF I don’t think I have read a poorer response to legitimate questions. Completely unanswered.

Edited September 8, 2023 by The Voice of Reason
Correct auto thing and addition to last pars

[John Wright]

10 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

In all my years on MF I don’t think I have read a poorer response to legitimate questions. Completey unanswered.

Makes us even. Brexiteers haven’t honestly answered the legitimate question of what benefit will/has Brexit confer(red) on UK at any time pre referendum, post referendum and pre Brexit or post January 2021.

Of course there isn’t a possible, legitimate, response.

It was designed to do one thing, preserve the Tories. It hasn’t done that. And, frankly there’s no benefit to UK in preserving the Tories.

We share your pain at poor responses/unanswered questions. And have been suffering it for much, much longer.