Brexit Penny Dropping?

[manxman1980]

26 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Right, back to 1.

 Strengthening our migration system

By which I think you are talking immigration into the UK. Yes I think the UK should offer shelter and succour to those who need it. Those who are being persecuted in their own countries, for example.

As regards migration into the UK to take up jobs which need to be filled. All for it, but why should one group ( EU citizens) have priority over the rest of the world. 

If someone is best for the job be they  from Madrid or Adelaide they shouldn’t have an inbuilt advantage. Not good for those disadvantaged and not good for the UK

I was quoting the Prime Ministers reference to the migration system but yes I think he means immigration. 

"Illegal" immigration is a red herring.  The numbers of people entering the country this way are tiny compared to those entering on Student and Work visas.

The Tory Party and large parts of the Leave Campaign were positioned on lowering immigration not increasing it.  Remember Farage and his poster?

I think since Brexit immigration has at least double but potentially tripled. 

Here was me thinking "take back control" also included taking back control of the borders?

I thought we were now all for British jobs for British people?

Is it not the case that the salary for immigrant workers was cut because of a labour shortage following Brexit?  One that, ironically for the stories, strengthened the position of Trade Unions in demanding higher wages? (Not that this is a bad thing.  Just amusing that the Tory party caused this).

Would you like to have a go at the final one?  Your arguments I  supporting the other two have so far fell flat.

[The Voice of Reason]

26 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

I was quoting the Prime Ministers reference to the migration system but yes I think he means immigration. 

"Illegal" immigration is a red herring.  The numbers of people entering the country this way are tiny compared to those entering on Student and Work visas.

The Tory Party and large parts of the Leave Campaign were positioned on lowering immigration not increasing it.  Remember Farage and his poster?

I think since Brexit immigration has at least double but potentially tripled. 

Here was me thinking "take back control" also included taking back control of the borders?

I thought we were now all for British jobs for British people?

Is it not the case that the salary for immigrant workers was cut because of a labour shortage following Brexit?  One that, ironically for the stories, strengthened the position of Trade Unions in demanding higher wages? (Not that this is a bad thing.  Just amusing that the Tory party caused this).

Would you like to have a go at the final one?  Your arguments I  supporting the other two have so far fell flat.

“The Tory Party and large parts of the Leave Campaign were positioned on lowering immigration not increasing it.  Remember Farage and his poster?”

“I think since Brexit immigration has at least double but potentially tripled. “

You are making the classic mistake in thinking that Brexit voters are anti immigration. And you  don’t have to be a fan of Farage to make up your own mind as to whether the UK should be self governing.

“ I thought we were now all for British jobs for British people?“

Some might say that you are expressing a near racist view there. I suppose ideally there is some merit in that statement But if the jobs cannot be filled by  “ British” people then we should be grateful for those who come here to fill those jobs. Where would the NHS be without such people?

Not much point having a go  at the final one as you will just disregard my fine arguments as you have with the other two. Your mind is closed and nothing I could say would change it.

Edited November 30, 2023 by The Voice of Reason

[La Colombe]

1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said:

So what?

So it's the Brexit Penny Dropping. 

[La Colombe]

 

[Freggyragh]

80% of the UK's animal welfare legislation comes from the EU. When an EU member, the UK shared 80% of its animal welfare legislation with the EU and trade agreements with non-EU countries required those countries to match or exceed EU welfare rules. Leaving the CAP gave the UK an opportunity to use subsidies as well as laws as a means of encouraging better welfare. That hasn't happened, and won't happen.

Some EU countries have banned live export, farrowing cages and battery hens, the UK has not.

In fact, it has put UK farmers into direct competition with countries with far lower welfare standards, many of which use farrowing and veal cages, restrictive feedlots, growth hormones and the growth promoter ractopamine, do not use anaesthetic for de-beaking, de-toeing, tail-docking, tooth-pulling, castration, and de-horning, and do not require regular veterinary welfare visits to farms. 

The idea that the UK, having put its food producers into competition with countries with far lower welfare standards than the EU will legislate for better animal welfare standards than the EU is ridiculous — they are already suffering with the loss of their biggest market and can't recruit workers.

Please stop reading spiv / toff propaganda and use your own brain.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Freggyragh

[Non-Believer]

16 minutes ago, Freggyragh said:

80% of the UK's animal welfare legislation comes from the EU. When an EU member, the UK shared 80% of its animal welfare legislation with the EU and trade agreements with non-EU countries required those countries to match or exceed EU welfare rules. Leaving the CAP gave the UK an opportunity to use subsidies as well as laws as a means of encouraging better welfare. That hasn't happened, and won't happen.

Some EU countries have banned live export, farrowing cages and battery hens, the UK has not.

In fact, it has put UK farmers into direct competition with countries with far lower welfare standards, many of which use farrowing and veal cages, restrictive feedlots, growth hormones and the growth promoter ractopamine, do not use anaesthetic for de-beaking, de-toeing, tail-docking, tooth-pulling, castration, and de-horning, and do not require regular veterinary welfare visits to farms. 

The idea that the UK, having put its food producers into competition with countries with far lower welfare standards than the EU will legislate for better animal welfare standards than the EU is ridiculous — they are already suffering with the loss of their biggest market and can't recruit workers.

Please stop reading spiv / toff propaganda and use your own brain.

But we got our utterly lost sovereignty and blue passports back....it was all worth it.

Signed,

TVOR

[The Voice of Reason]

10 hours ago, Freggyragh said:

80% of the UK's animal welfare legislation comes from the EU. When an EU member, the UK shared 80% of its animal welfare legislation with the EU and trade agreements with non-EU countries required those countries to match or exceed EU welfare rules. Leaving the CAP gave the UK an opportunity to use subsidies as well as laws as a means of encouraging better welfare. That hasn't happened, and won't happen.

Some EU countries have banned live export, farrowing cages and battery hens, the UK has not.

In fact, it has put UK farmers into direct competition with countries with far lower welfare standards, many of which use farrowing and veal cages, restrictive feedlots, growth hormones and the growth promoter ractopamine, do not use anaesthetic for de-beaking, de-toeing, tail-docking, tooth-pulling, castration, and de-horning, and do not require regular veterinary welfare visits to farms. 

The idea that the UK, having put its food producers into competition with countries with far lower welfare standards than the EU will legislate for better animal welfare standards than the EU is ridiculous — they are already suffering with the loss of their biggest market and can't recruit workers.

Please stop reading spiv / toff propaganda and use your own brain.

More “ spiv/toff” propaganda. 

 

Government to launch new animal welfare standards following EU departure

Posted on August 20, 2021 by Midgley Snelling

New legislation will protect the welfare of farm animals being transported across England and Wales, the Government has announced.

EU directives had previously prevented any changes to animal welfare rules, but now that the UK has left the single market, the UK Government is free to improve standards and regulations.

Here’s what we know about the reforms so far.

What is changing?

According to the consultation document, farm animals will benefit from improved welfare standards compared to those currently afforded under the EU regime.

This includes shorter journey times, more headroom, and “stricter rules” on being moved in extreme temperatures.

Here’s a summary of the proposals:

• Introducing shorter maximum journey times for live animals – between four and 24 hours depending on the species of animal
• Giving animals more headroom during transport
• Stricter rules on the transport of animals during extreme hot or cold temperatures
• Better training for animal transporters
• New guidance on an animal’s fitness to travel.

The Government says the new rules – which have been developed in partnership with the farming industry – come in addition to the proposed ban on live animal exports for slaughter and fattening, currently going through Parliament as part of the Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill.

When will the new rules apply?

The new legislation will apply to any animal being transported within England and Wales for journeys over 65 km. This is also likely to include animals being transported abroad via England or Wales or animals exported into England and Wales from overseas.

“Opportunity to change legislation and make substantial improvements to animal welfare in transport”

Commenting on the new standards, Environment Secretary George Eustice said: “We are legislating to ban the export of live animals for slaughter and fattening, and are now developing other measures to improve the welfare of animals during transport.

“We have listened to the concerns raised relating to our proposed changes to transport regulations and have made changes to address these. We will continue to work with industry on the remaining details.”

 

 

 

[Freggyragh]

The bill that was actually passed is very different to the proposals, and lags behind the welfare regs of many EU countries. The headline part of the regs is the ban on live animal exports to the Mainland of Europe (but not to Ireland). Which is going to change things very little. The only part of the UK that exports a significant number of live animals to  the EU is Northern Ireland (sheep to Spain). They will all have to be driven down to Dublin now (which was happening anyway thanks to brexit). No regs on the welfare in countries that export meat to the UK, and nothing significant to improve welfare on UK farms. A nothing burger then, like all 'brexit benefits'. But you go on &  pop on your union-jack waistcoat and cheer it to the rafters. 

[P.K.]

Quite.

@The Voice of Reason

So you're not only reduced to playing the much hackneyed "sovereignty" card when most folks know that in any trade deal you have to give some of that "sovereignty" away anyway but even worse there are so few actual "brexit benefits" that they're having to be invented like this animal welfare nonsense.

And with "Useless" Eustice at the wheel what could possibly go wrong...?

[La Colombe]

Brexit isn't a disaster says Larry Elliot. 

[P.K.]

Typical Guardian. Well worth a read I thought.

Pointing out the big-boy investments like Nissan is fair enough I suppose but it's not really surprising as the UK still represents tariff-free entry into the EU. Which is why they came here in the first place. That and lots of public money in bribes by Thatcher et al.

However just a tiny mention of the havoc brexit caused to UK SME's. Which actually account for 99.9% of the business population spread over 5.6 million private sector businesses. One in eight of which gave up due to exporting to the EU becoming too difficult and costly.

Very broad-brush stuff.

You keep hearing about the folks in the UK who have just dropped out of the employment market. Well, they came from somewhere...

[The Voice of Reason]

13 hours ago, Freggyragh said:

The bill that was actually passed is very different to the proposals, and lags behind the welfare regs of many EU countries. The headline part of the regs is the ban on live animal exports to the Mainland of Europe (but not to Ireland). Which is going to change things very little. The only part of the UK that exports a significant number of live animals to  the EU is Northern Ireland (sheep to Spain). They will all have to be driven down to Dublin now (which was happening anyway thanks to brexit). No regs on the welfare in countries that export meat to the UK, and nothing significant to improve welfare on UK farms. A nothing burger then, like all 'brexit benefits'. But you go on &  pop on your union-jack waistcoat and cheer it to the rafters. 

It may suprise you to know that I don’t possess a Union Flag waistcoat anymore than I suspect you have one in the colours of the EU flag.

I and the majority of Brexit supporters are not the mad jingoists that some would have you believe

I considered all the arguments and listened to the debates and had I had a vote would have voted Leave. You came to a different conclusion.

There were many factors to consider not all of them economic (freedom of movement etc) but for me the overriding principle was that of self governance, but that hardly makes me Tommy Robinson does it?

You just came to a different conclusion, I imagine because you weight the various considerations differently. Fair enough.

Thats it really.

 

 

Edited December 5, 2023 by The Voice of Reason

[Moghrey Mie]

What's our relationship to the European Union since BREXIT?
 

https://www.gov.im/media/624101/protocol3relationshipwiththeeu.pdf

[P.K.]

Excuse me but you read the Telegraph.

Which means you believe the nonsense it spouts and actually agree with it!!!

[The Voice of Reason]

4 minutes ago, P.K. said:

Excuse me but you read the Telegraph.

Which means you believe the nonsense it spouts and actually agree with it!!!

Excuse me but I also read the Guardian, what does that mean?