Brexit Penny Dropping?

[manxman1980]

4 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

The graph shows the result of people being fed a pack of lies.

What lies?

That question is simply asking if, knowing what we know now, do people think the UK was right or wrong to leave the EU?

If you really wanted to pick it apart you would want to see the same group questioned over how they voted at the referendum and compare the results.

It would be interesting to see how many people have shifted their point of view (if any have).

But as we know you just jump to an emotional response to defend your precious Brexit.

[The Voice of Reason]

14 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

What lies?

That question is simply asking if, knowing what we know now, do people think the UK was right or wrong to leave the EU?

If you really wanted to pick it apart you would want to see the same group questioned over how they voted at the referendum and compare the results.

It would be interesting to see how many people have shifted their point of view (if any have).

But as we know you just jump to an emotional response to defend your precious Brexit.

Well it’s quite simple. 
 

The question as you say is do you think it was right or wrong to leave the EU?

Not entirely dissimilar to the 2016 referendum question “ do you think the UK should leave the UK?” ( ie is it right or wrong that the UK should leave the EU?)

A snapshot, but a referendum has to take place in one moment of time. You can’t have one every week.

Remainers insist that the vote was for Brexit because the leave side told lies and misled the people who were stupid and didn’t understand what they were voting for.

So are not the people who are dissing Brexit not telling lies also?

In both cases there are lies, damn lies and statistics. But what can’t be dismissed is the fact that the UK by and large can now plough its own furrow, cooperating with the EU ( and the US and Asian countries etc) where it’s of mutual benefit. Without having to act collectively with twenty seven countries some or all of whom, quite rightly, have differing interests
 

Another couple of years the graph could look entirely different.

It’s not an emotional response to my precious Brexit. It’s the Brexit that is precious to the majority who voted for it. I think it’s called democracy.

[La Colombe]

36 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Not entirely dissimilar to the 2016 referendum question “ do you think the UK should leave the UK?”

Can't remember that referendum. 

[The Voice of Reason]

3 minutes ago, La Colombe said:

Can't remember that referendum. 

It wasn’t much discussed.

[John Wright]

6 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

t wasn’t much discussed.

 

10 minutes ago, La Colombe said:

Can't remember that referendum. 

 

47 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

do you think the UK should leave the UK?”

There’s never been a referendum with that question.

[The Voice of Reason]

Just now, John Wright said:

 

 

There’s never been a referendum with that question.

You missed it as well then?

[John Wright]

15 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

You missed it as well then?

No. You’re imagining, wrongly,  the question.

[The Voice of Reason]

2 minutes ago, John Wright said:

No. You’re imagining, wrongly,  the question.

I said re the 2016 referendum  the question was “ do you think the UK should leave the UK”

It was a clear and obvious error, the second “ UK” should have been “EU”.

I think most people would have recognised that and not really made a thing of it.

[John Wright]

7 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

I said re the 2016 referendum  the question was “ do you think the UK should leave the UK”

It was a clear and obvious error, the second “ UK” should have been “EU”.

I think most people would have recognised that and not really made a thing of it.

I wasn’t referring to your error on leaving the UK. Even substituting EU that was not the question.

It’s pretty typical brexiteer behaviour. You get hold of the wrong end of the wrong stick, because you’re stupid, or you’ve been lied to and are gullible, then you’ve got a totally closed mind because

1. you daren't admit you’re wrong

2. you mustn’t look it up, in case you are wrong

3. you can’t conceive that other brexiteers, probably the majority, have changed their minds.

Just like elections where the majority changes, regularly, so can the view of the public change on questions posed in referendums.

[John Wright]

1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said:

I think it’s called democracy

The fundamental of democracy is being able to change your views and your vote.

[The Voice of Reason]

2 minutes ago, John Wright said:

I wasn’t referring to your error on leaving the UK. Even substituting EU that was not the question.

It’s pretty typical brexiteer behaviour. You get hold of the wrong end of the wrong stick, because you’re stupid, or you’ve been lied to and are gullible, then you’ve got a totally closed mind because

1. you daren't admit you’re wrong

2. you mustn’t look it up, in case you are wrong

3. you can’t conceive that other brexiteers, probably the majority, have changed their minds.

Just like elections where the majority changes, regularly, so can the view of the public change on questions posed in referendums.

Thanks for the abuse.

Like you say people change their minds as evidenced in elections. But like I say you can’t have an election or referendum ( on a particular issue) every week.

The result was what it was.

If it had been for Remain ( which to be honest I thought it would be) I would have been disappointed but as they say would have “ sucked it up”

I wouldn’t have wasted all my time and energy moaning about it, because the result wasn’t what I wanted.

 

[John Wright]

7 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Thanks for the abuse.

Like you say people change their minds as evidenced in elections. But like I say you can’t have an election or referendum ( on a particular issue) every week.

The result was what it was.

If it had been for Remain ( which to be honest I thought it would be) I would have been disappointed but as they say would have “ sucked it up”

I wouldn’t have wasted all my time and energy moaning about it, because the result wasn’t what I wanted.

 

I’m not moaning. The result was what it was. It’ll stay that way, like any other “democratic” decision, until it is changed.

Just looks as if that change May be sooner than anyone expected. I’m surprised the apparent swing is so soon and so much. Shows how fickle the electorate is.

Of course, you’re correct. You shouldn’t have referendums week after week until the “desired” result is acheived.

Indeed on issues like this referendums are wholly inappropriate. But that genie is out of the bottle and can’t be put back in.

Its why supermajorities should be required for a change from any constitutional status quo via a referendum vote.

[manxman1980]

15 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Well it’s quite simple. 
 

The question as you say is do you think it was right or wrong to leave the EU?

Not entirely dissimilar to the 2016 referendum question “ do you think the UK should leave the UK?” ( ie is it right or wrong that the UK should leave the EU?)

A snapshot, but a referendum has to take place in one moment of time. You can’t have one every week.

Remainers insist that the vote was for Brexit because the leave side told lies and misled the people who were stupid and didn’t understand what they were voting for.

So are not the people who are dissing Brexit not telling lies also?

In both cases there are lies, damn lies and statistics. But what can’t be dismissed is the fact that the UK by and large can now plough its own furrow, cooperating with the EU ( and the US and Asian countries etc) where it’s of mutual benefit. Without having to act collectively with twenty seven countries some or all of whom, quite rightly, have differing interests
 

Another couple of years the graph could look entirely different.

It’s not an emotional response to my precious Brexit. It’s the Brexit that is precious to the majority who voted for it. I think it’s called democracy.

Ignoring your very amusing typo (although arguably there was a time when a referendum on the future of the UK also felt a very real possibility) and your subsequent argument with John...

The respondents to that survey have been asked a very simple question "do you think it was right or wrong to leave the EU?".  Whilst there have certainly been arguments since Brexit happened we now live in a time where the UK has left the EU.  It is not re-running the referendum, it is an opinion poll showing how people now feel.

There have been no formal campaigns (with clear backing by senior politicians) arguing one way or another since the UK left the EU.  Although there is an increasing "Rejoin" movement and still plenty of pro-brexit voices (GB News, the ERG, Daily Mail etc) but none of these have the traction or reach of the original campaigns. 

The respondents to the question now live in a UK that has left the EU.  That is the reality and with hindsight they are saying that they believe it was wrong for the UK to leave.  It is not re-running a referendum anymore than opinion polls on Government policy or likely voting patterns at the next election are actual referendums or elections.

As I said in my post you have completely gone off on one because you don't agree with the results of that poll.  I was very clear in saying that to fully understand any change of opinion then you would also need to know how the respondents voted in the referendum.  If they all voted remain then that result is not a surprise.  If they all voted leave then that result is a huge surprise.  If it was something in between then that also sheds light on how people now view Brexit but it is one small snapshot.

I do think that there is a realisation dawning on many that the promised "sunlit uplands" and unicorns are not going to materialise.  Immigration has increased in the years since Brexit and it is even worse in many people's eyes as there are more people of colour and more Muslims entering the UK legally.  The number of legal migrants combined with the fact that they are often people of colour makes it even more noticeable to your average knuckle dragging racist who was expecting all the people of colour to leave the UK (even though they had never been a citizen of any other EU country).

The NHS is getting worse and worse.  The roads are getting worse and worse.  Major projects are being cancelled (HS2) and delayed.  Huge amounts of money are being given to Rwanda for virtually nothing.  The UK politicians are still corrupt and the leading party is apparently set to self-destruct.

Are you really surprised that people do not feel positive about Brexit? 

 

[woolley]

16 hours ago, John Wright said:

then you’ve got a totally closed mind because

1. you daren't admit you’re wrong

 

The irony.

[woolley]

1 hour ago, manxman1980 said:

Ignoring your very amusing typo (although arguably there was a time when a referendum on the future of the UK also felt a very real possibility) and your subsequent argument with John...

The respondents to that survey have been asked a very simple question "do you think it was right or wrong to leave the EU?".  Whilst there have certainly been arguments since Brexit happened we now live in a time where the UK has left the EU.  It is not re-running the referendum, it is an opinion poll showing how people now feel.

There have been no formal campaigns (with clear backing by senior politicians) arguing one way or another since the UK left the EU.  Although there is an increasing "Rejoin" movement and still plenty of pro-brexit voices (GB News, the ERG, Daily Mail etc) but none of these have the traction or reach of the original campaigns. 

The respondents to the question now live in a UK that has left the EU.  That is the reality and with hindsight they are saying that they believe it was wrong for the UK to leave.  It is not re-running a referendum anymore than opinion polls on Government policy or likely voting patterns at the next election are actual referendums or elections.

As I said in my post you have completely gone off on one because you don't agree with the results of that poll.  I was very clear in saying that to fully understand any change of opinion then you would also need to know how the respondents voted in the referendum.  If they all voted remain then that result is not a surprise.  If they all voted leave then that result is a huge surprise.  If it was something in between then that also sheds light on how people now view Brexit but it is one small snapshot.

I do think that there is a realisation dawning on many that the promised "sunlit uplands" and unicorns are not going to materialise.  Immigration has increased in the years since Brexit and it is even worse in many people's eyes as there are more people of colour and more Muslims entering the UK legally.  The number of legal migrants combined with the fact that they are often people of colour makes it even more noticeable to your average knuckle dragging racist who was expecting all the people of colour to leave the UK (even though they had never been a citizen of any other EU country).

The NHS is getting worse and worse.  The roads are getting worse and worse.  Major projects are being cancelled (HS2) and delayed.  Huge amounts of money are being given to Rwanda for virtually nothing.  The UK politicians are still corrupt and the leading party is apparently set to self-destruct.

Are you really surprised that people do not feel positive about Brexit? 

 

A lot of the negatives you list have little to do with Brexit. They are more to do with Covid, commodity costs increasing, and they even hark back to the financial crisis of 2008 for which the chickens are still coming home to roost. Times are hard the world over. EU countries aren't exactly enjoying a beanfeast. It is natural that people reach for easy targets on which to hang their frustrations.