Brexit Penny Dropping?

[HeliX]

17 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Well it’s quite simple. 
 

The question as you say is do you think it was right or wrong to leave the EU?

Not entirely dissimilar to the 2016 referendum question “ do you think the UK should leave the UK?” ( ie is it right or wrong that the UK should leave the EU?)

A snapshot, but a referendum has to take place in one moment of time. You can’t have one every week.

Remainers insist that the vote was for Brexit because the leave side told lies and misled the people who were stupid and didn’t understand what they were voting for.

So are not the people who are dissing Brexit not telling lies also?

In both cases there are lies, damn lies and statistics. But what can’t be dismissed is the fact that the UK by and large can now plough its own furrow, cooperating with the EU ( and the US and Asian countries etc) where it’s of mutual benefit. Without having to act collectively with twenty seven countries some or all of whom, quite rightly, have differing interests
 

Another couple of years the graph could look entirely different.

It’s not an emotional response to my precious Brexit. It’s the Brexit that is precious to the majority who voted for it. I think it’s called democracy.

Except the poll linked above came after everyone has had actual, real, lived experience of what Brexit means.

[woolley]

8 minutes ago, HeliX said:

Except the poll linked above came after everyone has had actual, real, lived experience of what Brexit means.

But Helix, you must appreciate that this is far too simplistic, and what they have is "actual, real, lived experience" of what life in 2023 means, and not just in the UK. It embraces the showering of taxpayers' money to keep everything from falling apart during the pandemic, and the supply shortages globally in the aftermath that kicked off inflation. Likewise the money thrown at households and businesses following the further hike in commodities that happened with the outbreak of the Ukraine war.

The cheerleaders for the EU would have us believe that none of this ever happened, and that all of the consequent woes are the direct result of Brexit. The really gullible are the ones who believe it.

[HeliX]

7 minutes ago, woolley said:

But Helix, you must appreciate that this is far too simplistic, and what they have is "actual, real, lived experience" of what life in 2023 means, and not just in the UK. It embraces the showering of taxpayers' money to keep everything from falling apart during the pandemic, and the supply shortages globally in the aftermath that kicked off inflation. Likewise the money thrown at households and businesses following the further hike in commodities that happened with the outbreak of the Ukraine war.

The cheerleaders for the EU would have us believe that none of this ever happened, and that all of the consequent woes are the direct result of Brexit. The really gullible are the ones who believe it.

Certainly, but I think it's fair to say that the average Brit knows a lot more about Brexit and the EU now than they did at the time of the referendum. And I think it's also fair to say that Brexit is not currently the democratic will of the people. Not that I want to see another referendum because I'm just sick of the whole sorry affair frankly. But Brexit supporters would be well served by dropping the "It's the democractic will of the British people" rhetoric.

[woolley]

4 minutes ago, HeliX said:

Certainly, but I think it's fair to say that the average Brit knows a lot more about Brexit and the EU now than they did at the time of the referendum. 

Hmmmmm. I'm fairly certain that they don't.

[HeliX]

9 minutes ago, woolley said:

Hmmmmm. I'm fairly certain that they don't.

Fairly damning indictment of the electorate. Maybe they shouldn't be allowed to vote at all.

[The Voice of Reason]

2 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

Ignoring your very amusing typo (although arguably there was a time when a referendum on the future of the UK also felt a very real possibility) and your subsequent argument with John...

The respondents to that survey have been asked a very simple question "do you think it was right or wrong to leave the EU?".  Whilst there have certainly been arguments since Brexit happened we now live in a time where the UK has left the EU.  It is not re-running the referendum, it is an opinion poll showing how people now feel.

There have been no formal campaigns (with clear backing by senior politicians) arguing one way or another since the UK left the EU.  Although there is an increasing "Rejoin" movement and still plenty of pro-brexit voices (GB News, the ERG, Daily Mail etc) but none of these have the traction or reach of the original campaigns. 

The respondents to the question now live in a UK that has left the EU.  That is the reality and with hindsight they are saying that they believe it was wrong for the UK to leave.  It is not re-running a referendum anymore than opinion polls on Government policy or likely voting patterns at the next election are actual referendums or elections.

As I said in my post you have completely gone off on one because you don't agree with the results of that poll.  I was very clear in saying that to fully understand any change of opinion then you would also need to know how the respondents voted in the referendum.  If they all voted remain then that result is not a surprise.  If they all voted leave then that result is a huge surprise.  If it was something in between then that also sheds light on how people now view Brexit but it is one small snapshot.

I do think that there is a realisation dawning on many that the promised "sunlit uplands" and unicorns are not going to materialise.  Immigration has increased in the years since Brexit and it is even worse in many people's eyes as there are more people of colour and more Muslims entering the UK legally.  The number of legal migrants combined with the fact that they are often people of colour makes it even more noticeable to your average knuckle dragging racist who was expecting all the people of colour to leave the UK (even though they had never been a citizen of any other EU country).

The NHS is getting worse and worse.  The roads are getting worse and worse.  Major projects are being cancelled (HS2) and delayed.  Huge amounts of money are being given to Rwanda for virtually nothing.  The UK politicians are still corrupt and the leading party is apparently set to self-destruct.

Are you really surprised that people do not feel positive about Brexit? 

 

I’m not sure how you come to the conclusion that I have “ gone off on one because I don’t agree with the results of the poll”

I do note, however that the y axis in the graph is truncated, not beginning at zero which can visually exaggerate the extent of the difference. But that’s a minor issue.

As I mentioned the poll is a snapshot of what people feel about Brexit which could be reversed in the coming years. Remember when Governments were lauded for their handling of the Covid crisis? It’s a very different picture nowadays.

It’s saddening to see that you are associating, however subtly,the likes of the Daily Mail and “ knuckle dragging racists” with Brexit supporters. I suppose this stereotyping gives Remainers a sense of holding the high moral ground as some sort of compensation for losing the vote.

Finally as Woolley says a lot of the negatives you list have little ( or nothing) to do with Brexit

[manxman1980]

8 hours ago, woolley said:

A lot of the negatives you list have little to do with Brexit. They are more to do with Covid, commodity costs increasing, and they even hark back to the financial crisis of 2008 for which the chickens are still coming home to roost. Times are hard the world over. EU countries aren't exactly enjoying a beanfeast. It is natural that people reach for easy targets on which to hang their frustrations.

They may well not be directly related to Brexit but not everyone sits and unpacks it. 

Brexit promised lots of things but I think many people would be hard pressed to name any.

The recent immigration statistics make a mockery of controlling the UK borders post Brexit if nothing else.

7 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

I’m not sure how you come to the conclusion that I have “ gone off on one because I don’t agree with the results of the poll”

That would be your over the top reaction to the post that included the poll.

7 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

I do note, however that the y axis in the graph is truncated, not beginning at zero which can visually exaggerate the extent of the difference. But that’s a minor issue.

Grasping at straws...

7 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

As I mentioned the poll is a snapshot of what people feel about Brexit which could be reversed in the coming years. Remember when Governments were lauded for their handling of the Covid crisis? It’s a very different picture nowadays.

The UK Government was never really lauded for its response even at the time.

The best thing they did was the furlough scheme but it turns out that wad abused and largely by mates of MP's.

7 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

It’s saddening to see that you are associating, however subtly,the likes of the Daily Mail and “ knuckle dragging racists” with Brexit supporters. I suppose this stereotyping gives Remainers a sense of holding the high moral ground as some sort of compensation for losing the vote.

I suggest you take a look at the comments section on the MailOnline.

Racist and misogynistic comments abound.

7 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Finally as Woolley says a lot of the negatives you list have little ( or nothing) to do with Brexit

See my above response to Woolley.

[The Voice of Reason]

2 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

 

I suggest you take a look at the comments section on the MailOnline.

 

Thats not really not something  I would care to do

 

[manxman1980]

28 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Thats not really not something  I would care to do

 

No, it is not a pleasant read at all. 

It does, however, show the type of people that the Mail Online engages with and I would argue actively encourages.  It would also go some way to you understanding my link between the Daily Mail and knuckle dragging racists.

[P.K.]

9 hours ago, HeliX said:

Certainly, but I think it's fair to say that the average Brit knows a lot more about Brexit and the EU now than they did at the time of the referendum. 

 

9 hours ago, woolley said:

Hmmmmm. I'm fairly certain that they don't.

Perhaps not.

But they know they've been taken for mugs...

[The Voice of Reason]

10 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

No, it is not a pleasant read at all. 

It does, however, show the type of people that the Mail Online engages with and I would argue actively encourages.  It would also go some way to you understanding my link between the Daily Mail and knuckle dragging racists.

I think most people understand that some readers of the Daily Mail display unpleasant characteristics.

Thats never been in doubt, not least in my mind.

But it’s the linkage with Brexit that we are discussing.

Sure you will have had Daily Mail readers voting to leave. But that doesn’t mean that Brexit was driven by racism.

[manxman1980]

1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said:

I think most people understand that some readers of the Daily Mail display unpleasant characteristics.

Thats never been in doubt, not least in my mind.

But it’s the linkage with Brexit that we are discussing.

Sure you will have had Daily Mail readers voting to leave. But that doesn’t mean that Brexit was driven by racism.

The Daily Mail tends to hold right wing views (which is fine) but has swung massively on occasions to the far right.  I know people who read the Daily Mail and believe virtually everything written in it (on online).

As for the link with Brexit...  We agree that the Daily Mail and many of its readers display unpleasant characteristics.  That includes elements of its readership that is racist.  The Daily Mail was strongly in favour of Brexit.

There was also evidence throughout the pre-referendum campaigns and post the result to show that racism was a part of the reason why some (but not all) voted for brexit.

[woolley]

12 hours ago, P.K. said:

 

Perhaps not.

But they know they've been taken for mugs...

That's a given. Although not for the reasons they may think.

 

2 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Sure you will have had Daily Mail readers voting to leave. But that doesn’t mean that Brexit was driven by racism.

That's the point. It was driven by the desire for the freedom to run the country from within. It comes with the freedom to make either a success or a total Horlicks of it. Growing up brings responsibilities.

 

[P.K.]

7 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

But it’s the linkage with Brexit that we are discussing.

Sure you will have had Daily Mail readers voting to leave. But that doesn’t mean that Brexit was driven by racism.

We know it was driven in part by racism. 

Not everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist but everyone who is a racist did vote for Brexit. Why would they not?

Of course, trying to figure out the proportion of who voted what and why is the tricky bit.  Especially as it's highly unlikely that anyone would actually admit to being a racist. But face it, Farage splashed around his infamous "Breaking Point" poster for a reason and it wasn't because he wanted to plumb a new low in UK politics - that was just a happy accident.  However in the weeks before the referendum 52% of those who were likely to vote Leave mentioned "immigration" as their most important issue.

Read into that what you will...

[The Voice of Reason]

26 minutes ago, P.K. said:

We know it was driven in part by racism. 

Not everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist but everyone who is a racist did vote for Brexit. Why would they not?

Of course, trying to figure out the proportion of who voted what and why is the tricky bit.  Especially as it's highly unlikely that anyone would actually admit to being a racist. But face it, Farage splashed around his infamous "Breaking Point" poster for a reason and it wasn't because he wanted to plumb a new low in UK politics - that was just a happy accident.  However in the weeks before the referendum 52% of those who were likely to vote Leave mentioned "immigration" as their most important issue.

Read into that what you will...

Yes that “ breaking point “ poster repulsed me as it would many others who voted leave.

But that’s no reason to change your vote if you wanted the UK to regain its sovereignty.

Immigration is not really so much an issue for me but it is for others. 
 

It’s a legitimate topic for discussion. A discussion that should be held without emotive accusations of racism being bandied around.