What Is Manx Culture ?

[sarahc]

Nipper, that's not the Manx. That's the Human Race.

[FinloYessir]

Nipper -

 

You are describing the goings on in any county of England, these days. I wonder if this has been escalating in proportion to the number of non-Manx people living on the Island?

[sarahc]

FinloYessir, pah. These people you see in the paper every week, are as Manx as the hills. Often there's a name that a more aged member of my family recognises as the son/daughter of a ne'er do well in their time!

[Tempus Fugit]

~ and I thought people in England knew what I meant when I talked about stobs and dubs, and slaa some butter on the bread,  but they didn't know what I was on about !

 

I was always amused when I went to customers' houses on jobs, and was casually asked how long I had been on the Island, as if it had been an uninhabited rock until the settlers moved in. My usual response was that I was a native but didn't have a bone through my nose 

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I must have missed stabs and dubs over my 46 years.

 

Can I have a translation?

 

Taa

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a stob is a fence post, (seems to be similar in scottish useage too if you do a google on 'stob manx')

 

a dub is a pond or pool, as in 'the black dub', or the dub in the field just beyond bishopscourt

 

a useful reference is http://homepages.enterprise.net/kelly/LIST/DICTIONARY/dict/

[FinloYessir]

Tempus Fugit,

 

Thanks for that.

 

Of course!

 

I knew a large pool out Scarlett as "the Big Dub" when I used to play there as a kid.

 

Phew!

 

Manx after all.

 

Lliats

[FinloYessir]

FinloYessir, pah.  These people you see in the paper every week, are as Manx as the hills. Often there's a name that a more aged member of my family recognises as the son/daughter of a ne'er do well in their time!

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Hi, Sarah,

 

What I mean is that whilst the comitters of the ne'er do welling may not be much different, the nature of the ne'er do welling has become much more serious as a result of external influences coming into the Island.

 

"Manx as the hills" - now that's an expression of Manx culture!

[La_Dolce_Vita]

What is slaa then. Not heard of that one.

 

The only Manx used I ever use are skeet. Only use mollag, fissog, govvag and yessir if I am being facetious.

 

From being in England the only thing they find funny about my colloquialisms is how I say 'nothing', which I say 'narthin'. That is apparently hilarious and endearing. Oh well, I like that.

[Alex]

Manx culture - we're slowly losing it. Wonder what will be left of it (& our countryside) in 50 years?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I don't know I find it confusing. I suppose it depends on what Manx culture actually is. Is it the same for everyone? I haven't got much on an in-depth understanding of what constitutes culture. Though is Manx culture is the culture of the Isle of Man then Manx culture will never go away, it would just be different.

 

I don't things you can prevent any change to Manx culture, no way you can prevent change and besides exactly what would you try and preserve and how?

[Gladys]

Good point LDV. I suppose Manx, or any other, culutre is the differences. With modern communications, however, those differences are bound to fade. If there is a difference, it is probably worth conserving the heritage of the Island; i.e. what we have inherited from the past rather than striving to find some current idiosyncracies which make us Manx. Thinking about it, perhaps it is our heritage that results in our culture, although as you say that is a hard term to define.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I think change happens for a reason. If people stop speaking Manx or if idiosyncrasies disappear or if English cultural values take over from Manx there is a reason for that.

 

I don't think you can preserve the Manx status quo as it is now. What would you do? Have street names all in Manx and somehow try to make sure that colloquialisms are spoken just as much as they are now, which isn't much.

I am all for preservation of the language and celtic/norse cultural institutions and other little things but I don't know what could be really done to make things more 'Manx' or even just to stop the island being Anglicised. Though this has been taking place for centuries, I don't think it can be help. Besides the island is beginning to become a little more cosmpolitan, I think due to the attractiveness of the island since the introduction of the finance sector. I think trends are such that it is going to be very difficult to resist change.

 

Is it then nationalism to aim to prevent change or rather are the reasons why we wish to prevent this change nationalism?

[Gladys]

LDV, I think it is separating culture from heritage. Culture probably does evolve as circumstances changes, but heritage doesn't (except in retrospect). Reviving the language, customs etc. doesn't create or preserve the culture but it does protect the heritage; perhaps thats all we should be seeking to do rather than delude ourselves that we have a separate culture!

[ButterflyMaiden]

LDV, I think it is separating culture from heritage.  Culture probably does evolve as circumstances changes, but heritage doesn't (except in retrospect).  Reviving the language, customs etc.  doesn't create or preserve the culture but it does protect the heritage; perhaps thats all we should be seeking to do rather than delude ourselves that we have a separate culture!

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I know Im not qualified to pass an opinion on this topic ..but I found your post so astute I just had to reply.

Does anyone else think heritage and culture are being confused ?

[staaue]

I hate the Sostnagh... Cultureless, arrogance which is beyond belief, greedy, phfffff I could go on but I’ve already got loads to rant on about….

 

Yeh I'm angry yessir.. Cos not only have they almost wiped out my culture, they are doing there best to my heritage.

 

Why do I keep hearing people say the language is dead or useless.. blah blah whatever rocks your boat, stop rocking and start paddling east. lol.. The language never died, was never taken; other than our forefathers knew we would do better in life speaking English. I do it to this day as it was done many years ago, I speak mixed English and Manks to my family and only English when ever we go out. And if I don't want some foreigner to know what it is I am saying, then I'll use my native tongue. Is it really so offensive to hear a native use the language of their ancestors…

I’ve never met anyone big enough who hasn’t regretted passing comment about the Manks language in front of me.

 

What will be left for our children, what will they think of us for doing nothing...?

 

Sorry - back to the question.

What is Manks... My children say Oie Vie when they go to bed and moghrey mie when they wake. They know the difference between fairies and mooinjer veggey and what a Buggane really is. They know a dog is pronounced ‘’Maw-tha’’ in Manks and not ‘’Modd-ee’’. We understand what a complete hero and martyr Illiam Dhone was to the Manks people, and any Manks person who doesn’t know who this man was should be ashamed of their Englishness.

They know that only idiots tie little bows at fairy Bridge and leave wishes on cards there...We know themselves don’t really exist, only in the mind, but we still say in Manks Fastyr mie Mooinjer Veggey..and laugh at the divvies flashing their lights.. lol..

They use THEIR language whenever they can, and we follow customs and superstitions wherever possible, there is even a loch of loughtan sheep above our front door with a rowan cross put there for good luck.. We even do the first footed on new years day..

My kids understand the real meaning behind a place name, which only an understanding of the language can give. They understand Manks dishes and the need to protect our environment.

One of my children stood totally gobsmacked while at the sound the other day, a speed boat at full pelt nearly hit a group of seals near Kitterland. And she is 10. need I say more. Skipper seemed indifferent as he came back the same way 10min later coming within 4mtrs or so of the seals... Are we the only ones who find that unacceptable, nobody else down there seemed bothered....

 

We all love listening to Manks music, and know who Brian Stowell, Adrian Cain, Bob Carswell, Fiona Mcardle to name a few Manks speakers off the radio are. As well as Moot, The Mollag band and Emma Christian are some of my personal favourites.

 

I won't go on as I figure you get my drift by now... and I could go on.

 

Hell... I can even take my children to the place in Kirk Patrick where my ancestors took there name from eons back.

 

Gura mie ayd.

 

Staaue...

 

PS. I don’t blame MecVannin for not wanting to swear allegiance to the English monarch, Look what happened to William Christian… Think about it.!!!

[Frances]

The decline of the Manks language is well documented - basically revestment forced many to earn a living away from the Island (eg in the Navy, in rapidly growing Liverpool ...) where knowledge of English was necessary - there are then many many examples of families deliberately not teaching their children Manx - there was a revival in late 19th C as part of the general Celtic revival (think of Knox's work, the Welsh eisteddfods ) but A W Moore made an execellent point at I think the 1904 eisteddfod when he pointed out that the Island was the only one that had a measureable amount of home rule and that practical politics could make more difference than mere romantic notions. One can have independence without stirring up racial 'hatred' - the Manx have been of mixed race for centuries - even in 1911 20% of inhabitants were born off the Island (10,000 out of 52,000).

Re William Christian - many have pointed out he is a very flawed 'hero' to adopt - all the eulogies actually date post Revestment when anti-English sentiment at the ending of the running trade was high. All contempory references describe him as a bully and petty tyrant - however you might like to read the 10 or pages of accusations in Lib Scacc in which he is accused of fathering a child on his own illegitimate daughter and trying to procure an abortion - there was a hearing by the Keys (of which he was a member) which dismissed the tale but on the appeal by his accusers to the Governor (apointed by Parliament the party that he had helped) the governor inquires into the case and especially the circumstances whereby the accused could sit in judgement on his own case and opened a fresh inquiry - within a couple of days William Christian had moved to England (illegally as he did not get the necessary permission, his brother was tried for aiding his escape) - I believe the story about the accounts being deficient was a whitewash - more telling about his conduct are the petitions by a relative that he not be appointed guardian of a young child as this would not be in the best interests of that child.

Whether Christian made the better choice to break his earlier oath of allegiance to the Derbys and saved the Manx from much bloodshed has been debated for at least a century and a half (see the collection of papers in the Manx Soc volume of the 1860's, Sir John Gell's legal opinion of the late 19th C, more argument in the 1930's etc) after all Derby had written a letter to his wife holed up in Castle Rushen telling her to surrender which Christian knew about (remember also that Derby also died after an even more questionable trial) - it is much more likely, IMO, given Christian's earlier conduct that he was operating in his own self interest.