John Wright Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 59 minutes ago, Apple said: I can't think why that didn't happen and they could also have collected the "day books" issue which apparently been destroyed? I can see the problems a bit clearer now about inviting people from across to some of these posts. Poor judgement in some cases. First of all she didn’t leave until Xmas 2021. So she could and should have been told to pitch up as a term of her employment and bring her government laptop and files, day book, etc. After she left nothing on her government laptop should have been deleted or cleared or archived after she left and it was returned. Nothing in DHSC data store should have been deleted or archived. First thing you do as a litigation lawyer is write to client and witnesses setting out what documents are, what disclosure is, that everything, good or bad, for or against, is discloseable, and it has to be handed to you as a lawyer and you will then check relevancy and privilege, not the client or witnesses. 6 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Johnson Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 1 hour ago, John Wright said: First of all she didn’t leave until Xmas 2021. So she could and should have been told to pitch up as a term of her employment and bring her government laptop and files, day book, etc. After she left nothing on her government laptop should have been deleted or cleared or archived after she left and it was returned. Nothing in DHSC data store should have been deleted or archived. First thing you do as a litigation lawyer is write to client and witnesses setting out what documents are, what disclosure is, that everything, good or bad, for or against, is discloseable, and it has to be handed to you as a lawyer and you will then check relevancy and privilege, not the client or witnesses. That all sounds fine in a perfect world but we don't live in one. People tell lies in court all the time. If they didn't, and told the truth when questioned there would be no need for the court process, to JUDGE their statements? They try and cover up their mistakes. Its basic human nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Mexico Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Boris Johnson said: That all sounds fine in a perfect world but we don't live in one. People tell lies in court all the time. If they didn't, and told the truth when questioned there would be no need for the court process, to JUDGE their statements? They try and cover up their mistakes. Its basic human nature. Your missing John's point. This isn't about Magson misbehaving (though Lord knows she did) this is about the lawyers representing the DHSC in the AG's Office not doing their job. As the Deemster said: 27. It is clear from the authorities that a failure by a solicitor or an advocate to discharge his or her duties in relation to disclosure can lead not only to adverse inferences being drawn against the client, but also to wasted costs orders against the lawyer and/or a contempt finding. The extent to which our system of civil justice depends on the integrity of advocates in this respect (for example in ensuring disclosure of relevant documents which are unfavourable to the client) cannot be overemphasized. Which means that such negligence could even lead to proceedings against those lawyers. Which is why they were trying to stop Heeley giving evidence that might incriminate herself or the AG's Chambers. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTF Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 16 hours ago, John Wright said: First of all she didn’t leave until Xmas 2021. So she could and should have been told to pitch up as a term of her employment and bring her government laptop and files, day book, etc. After she left nothing on her government laptop should have been deleted or cleared or archived after she left and it was returned. Nothing in DHSC data store should have been deleted or archived. First thing you do as a litigation lawyer is write to client and witnesses setting out what documents are, what disclosure is, that everything, good or bad, for or against, is discloseable, and it has to be handed to you as a lawyer and you will then check relevancy and privilege, not the client or witnesses. how are IOMG going to hide stuff if they have to do that ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 1 hour ago, WTF said: how are IOMG going to hide stuff if they have to do that ? That’s not the point. I’m talking about the lawyer’s duty. Ive had a litigation terms of business letter for 205+ years that explains it in simple plain English. I don’t take on litigation now, but anyone advising in litigation has a duty to give the advice about how to disclose properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apple Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 7 hours ago, WTF said: how are IOMG going to hide stuff if they have to do that ? Buy more carpets? 7 hours ago, WTF said: Nothing in DHSC data store should have been deleted or archived. What's the data store here John? Would it contain all the redactions from patient records in there? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost Ship Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 (edited) Going slightly off-topic - but staying with the general idea of how badly Dr Ranson was treated - back on 9th June this year, in response to a comment that Dr Ranson had only got justice because of the backing of her union (sic) @english zloty posted in the Whistleblowing etc thread, and I quote: "Her husband is a solicitor and she's done this at least once before, [my bold] so they're very experienced at how to win. Nowt to do with the Union" This seems to imply that Dr Ranson has a pattern of behaviour ( "... at least once before... ") of initiating and winning this sort of employment tribunal case on previous occasions. I may be mistaken but I think I've asked @english zloty a couple of times if they have any evidence of this pattern of behaviour on the part of Dr Ranson, but I'm not aware that they have replied to my question - although I believe they are still active on this forum. As I've not had a response from @english zloty so far as I'm aware, does anybody else know if what they claim is true or not? I'm interested because I'm a former NHS manager and I'm looking at the incidence of multiple claims against the NHS by individual employees. Edited October 15, 2022 by Ghost Ship Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apple Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 16 hours ago, Ghost Ship said: This seems to imply that Dr Ranson has a pattern of behaviour First Ive heard about that. 16 hours ago, Ghost Ship said: I'm interested because I'm a former NHS manager and I'm looking at the incidence of multiple claims against the NHS by individual employees. Interesting piece of research so good luck with that. How far back are you looking? Doesn't apply here on the island, does it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boo Gay'n Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 20 minutes ago, Apple said: First Ive heard about that. Interesting piece of research so good luck with that. How far back are you looking? Doesn't apply here on the island, does it? One thing that is definitely going on is that claimants and their advisers are pushing whistleblowing because it gives them - potentially - loads more dosh https://www.mirs.org.im/media/1166/how-eet-calculates-the-award.pdf. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cissolt Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 Interesting comments from Chris Robertshaw. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-HYCKAuES4Y How much blame should be laid at the door of the AG? And when will our mhks get a backbone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarndyce Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 2 hours ago, Boo Gay'n said: One thing that is definitely going on is that claimants and their advisers are pushing whistleblowing because it gives them - potentially - loads more dosh Do you have any actual evidence that this is “definitely going on”? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apple Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 4 hours ago, cissolt said: Interesting comments from Chris Robertshaw. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-HYCKAuES4Y How much blame should be laid at the door of the AG? And when will our mhks get a backbone? Culture seems to be the "in" word these days. I don't agree. The island practices are just catching up with the UK and include an abuse of power (instead of accountability) and arrogance in the "I know what you don't know" games. The checks and balances in situ on the island are for me not strong enough or respected enough but this case has been a show stopper in that the Chair and members of this Tribunal has called it out. They have demonstrated in my view their integrity and fortitude against those who thought they could behave in any way they wished to get rid of someone. Its been a practiced and followed over the last few years - people hounded out. Ranson wasn't the first to be kicked out of her office whilst her back was turned. She wasn't the only one who complained of bullying type behaviour. Let's not forget that. It could be that the race to get to and stay top of the castle in politics is being played out in and copied at many levels in Government Departments. If Robertshaw is right then the people of the island are playing second fiddle to Greed, Ambition and a desire for a decent Legacy. It's like the "Egos have landed". 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 The comments on sub judice are interesting, as is the continued adherence to a flawed interpretation. But it probably suits. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asitis Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 All the wriggling, and not me guv by departments is achieving, is further burning of taxpayers cash. You've been exposed, now take your medicine and make sure this cannot happen again. Areas of Government here are actually unfit to be granted executive power over taxpayers money, we desperately need an auditor general with teeth to reign these people and departments in. The new buzzword needs to be ACCOUNTABLE to the taxpayers ! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2112 Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 Another belter from Ashy, aided and abetted by the NPM, saying how the IOMs Health Service is running as though it ‘were the 1950s’. Sorry Ex Forced to Resign Minister Ashford, ran that Department, especially during the main period when most of the problems, issues and controversies arose, but nothing was done, to rectify or change policies. It’s all well and good coming back and having cosy fireside chats full of whimsical nostalgia, when he was amongst others part of the very issues affecting the department, now he thinks he can be ‘brutally honest’. I would love to know what he actually did whilst serving as a Minister, especially as he claims the Department is stuck in the past - which many wouldn’t disagree with - and obviously he did little to change that perception. Perhaps in the past, there was a different culture too? Do people remember the press conferences during Covid, especially the ones fronted by ex CM Quayle, ex Minister Ashford and ex Director of Public Health Hetty whereby Ashy would pretend to either to an expert, would either agree or suck up to the Chief Minister, or would pass the question on to Hetty. I am afraid that Ashford is really unfit for any role in Government either as a Minister or a Department member. 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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