360 View Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 On 10/20/2022 at 9:36 AM, Jarndyce said: Which politicians, exactly? Unfortunately, Manx Care was presented as a fait accompli and voted through on the nod. None of them (IIRC) looked at the numbers or raised any concerns about the failure of the same model in the UK - and now, none of them want to be the first to start pointing out that the Emperor is, in fact, naked - despite the highly expensive “new clothes”. If you look at the minutes of Emperor Manx Care’s board meetings (Data and Informatics Committee Update https://www.gov.im/media/1377752/board-papers-public-240522-corrected-minutes-combined.pdf ), it seems that they (CIO and Chair, both seemed remarkably well informed on it) identified a new IT system (EPIC according to the audio) but concern was raised by the CEO (who seemed surprised when it was mentioned) that “any solution that did not align primary and secondary care would be unsatisfactory” A quick google for EPIC confirms that it only works for hospital (acute) settings. The costs are EPIC too (https://www.digitalhealth.net/2021/10/speculation-of-epic-deal-with-nhs-england/) “ … in the realm of roughly £80-100million (call it £90million average) over ten years, with most of the money not going to the software vendor but in infrastructure and dedicated staffing to implement, install and run the software. The split is said to be roughly thirds. But the costs can be far, far more, Cambridge University Hospitals back in 2014 had a £200m budget for its digitisation programme as the first Epic site in the NHS. Guys and St Thomas’ NHS Foundation Trust’s Epic project is reportedly significantly in excess of £175million. Manchester University Hospitals NHS FT has a budget of £181million, while Northern Ireland has a budget of £275million and Frimley Health NHS FT a budget of £108million.” “But all of these benefits would only apply within the boundaries of the hospital and even, within a single provider organisation, an EPR doesn’t do everything. It has to interface and connect with many other systems.” Let’s just hope that they (and the Transformation Board, sitting in Cabinet Office with its own extortionate budget) stop and look to utilise the existing systems to their full potential, upgrading as necessary. But if they do chose to go with yet another system (stand by taxpayers ready to be royally shafted yet again) it does not: a. Do this simply because “some legacy systems would expire prior to that date and contracts would require renewal” (so what? This is like saying the insurance for my old Vauxhall is expiring, so I’m going to buy and insure a new Ferrari instead! FFS just get it done!) b. Try to shoehorn the system to fit Manx Care (It is complete, utter, and expensive nonsense to attempt to make a system, that clearly states it is for acute settings only, bespoke to the IOM and then call it the Manx Care Record!) or c. Drop the existing data in without a comprehensive cleanse and accuracy check – that is a cardinal IT sin – rubbish in, rubbish out, and you will still have to fix the data in the new system! (Yet more ££££) You can already hear them blaming the new system because the data isn’t right … How much will it cost to create/implement/fix a bespoke version - think yet more ‘consultants’ (or former members of staff offering services - cynical? yes, absolutely), and the hand-rubbing of EPIC as it bills extortionate costs for bespoke software and system upgrades? This will be yet another example of ‘got the IOM over a barrel’. Are Manx Care IT experts / IT governance (if you can call it that) and the Transformation team, living in a parallel universe to the rest of us? Time to get real and stop with wasting millions on unnecessary and (personal) vanity projects (aka Manx Care Record). Or has it already been signed and sealed and is fait accompli??? 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian rush Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 I’ve been looking at software for a start up and the idea of being so tethered to something so critical is a big thing to deal with and decide over. The money and complexity attaching to a do it all system for Manx Care - social, community, primary, acute must be crackers to have to scope out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cissolt Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 2 hours ago, 360 View said: If you look at the minutes of Emperor Manx Care’s board meetings (Data and Informatics Committee Update https://www.gov.im/media/1377752/board-papers-public-240522-corrected-minutes-combined.pdf ), it seems that they (CIO and Chair, both seemed remarkably well informed on it) identified a new IT system (EPIC according to the audio) but concern was raised by the CEO (who seemed surprised when it was mentioned) that “any solution that did not align primary and secondary care would be unsatisfactory” A quick google for EPIC confirms that it only works for hospital (acute) settings. The costs are EPIC too (https://www.digitalhealth.net/2021/10/speculation-of-epic-deal-with-nhs-england/) “ … in the realm of roughly £80-100million (call it £90million average) over ten years, with most of the money not going to the software vendor but in infrastructure and dedicated staffing to implement, install and run the software. The split is said to be roughly thirds. But the costs can be far, far more, Cambridge University Hospitals back in 2014 had a £200m budget for its digitisation programme as the first Epic site in the NHS. Guys and St Thomas’ NHS Foundation Trust’s Epic project is reportedly significantly in excess of £175million. Manchester University Hospitals NHS FT has a budget of £181million, while Northern Ireland has a budget of £275million and Frimley Health NHS FT a budget of £108million.” “But all of these benefits would only apply within the boundaries of the hospital and even, within a single provider organisation, an EPR doesn’t do everything. It has to interface and connect with many other systems.” Let’s just hope that they (and the Transformation Board, sitting in Cabinet Office with its own extortionate budget) stop and look to utilise the existing systems to their full potential, upgrading as necessary. But if they do chose to go with yet another system (stand by taxpayers ready to be royally shafted yet again) it does not: a. Do this simply because “some legacy systems would expire prior to that date and contracts would require renewal” (so what? This is like saying the insurance for my old Vauxhall is expiring, so I’m going to buy and insure a new Ferrari instead! FFS just get it done!) b. Try to shoehorn the system to fit Manx Care (It is complete, utter, and expensive nonsense to attempt to make a system, that clearly states it is for acute settings only, bespoke to the IOM and then call it the Manx Care Record!) or c. Drop the existing data in without a comprehensive cleanse and accuracy check – that is a cardinal IT sin – rubbish in, rubbish out, and you will still have to fix the data in the new system! (Yet more ££££) You can already hear them blaming the new system because the data isn’t right … How much will it cost to create/implement/fix a bespoke version - think yet more ‘consultants’ (or former members of staff offering services - cynical? yes, absolutely), and the hand-rubbing of EPIC as it bills extortionate costs for bespoke software and system upgrades? This will be yet another example of ‘got the IOM over a barrel’. Are Manx Care IT experts / IT governance (if you can call it that) and the Transformation team, living in a parallel universe to the rest of us? Time to get real and stop with wasting millions on unnecessary and (personal) vanity projects (aka Manx Care Record). Or has it already been signed and sealed and is fait accompli??? The CIO was mentioned earlier in the thread about being heavily involved in a massive NHS IT failure, was Sir Jonathan involved in that as well? Looking at the many warnings that Manx care have received from the information commissioners, he doesn't seem up to the job. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omobono Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 and this is a similar set up to what was proposed for Education , time for a rethink ! before its too late and we get there by default , Manx care appears to be a waste of money , Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarndyce Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 58 minutes ago, Omobono said: Manx care appears to be a waste of money Well, quite: only 201 pages in! Start with the duplication of highly paid management functions in DHSC and Manx Care and work outward from there… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost Ship Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 (edited) On 10/20/2022 at 11:28 PM, hampsterkahn said: No,no, that is clearly a mistake ( hypo/ hyper), John. Such unfortunate errors do happen... On 10/20/2022 at 11:29 PM, wrighty said: Not everyone had an education in classical Greek John. And also the opposite to hypothermia is usually labelled hyperpyrexia, so I’m sure you knew what he meant. Quite. I thought it more than a bit sad that @hissingsid should be picked up for the non-classicist's innocent error of confusing hypo with hyper. The sort of elitist point scoring that somebody like Boris Johnson (the real Boris Johnson and not @Boris Johnson ) would make. Edited October 21, 2022 by Ghost Ship Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTF Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 10 hours ago, Omobono said: Manx care appears to be a waste of money , only an idiot would have thought it wasn't going to be 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2112 Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 7 minutes ago, WTF said: only an idiot would have thought it wasn't going to be Idiots in Tynpotwald voted Manx Care into existence and look what has happened. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTF Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 6 hours ago, 2112 said: Idiots in Tynpotwald voted Manx Care into existence and look what has happened. that was my point. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarndyce Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 42 minutes ago, WTF said: that was my point No - I'M Spartacus! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boo Gay'n Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 Am I being unfair if I say 'working to try and tackle' but not succeeding? https://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-news/gastroenterology-service-experiencing-real-challenges-says-cope/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apple Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 On 10/21/2022 at 6:17 PM, 360 View said: Time to get real and stop with wasting millions on unnecessary and (personal) vanity projects (aka Manx Care Record). Or has it already been signed and sealed and is fait accompli??? I see the Babylon project across hospitals in London was scrapped a few weeks ago. A new system here is needed to tie everyone in , not only across health and social care but all Government Departments. Chris Thomas had some idea about this several years ago if I remember. Small Government by bigger data storage. By the way I am assuming CQC sought and got permission from everyones records to complete their safety reports?? including Manx care staff ? Would elderly people in residential homes be asked first.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarndyce Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 1 hour ago, Boo Gay'n said: Am I being unfair if I say 'working to try and tackle' but not succeeding? https://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-news/gastroenterology-service-experiencing-real-challenges-says-cope/ Not unfair. It sounds like the policy regarding use of NICE-approved drugs and treatments/tech is in place now - so surely Treasury have had a business case demonstrating the likely cost? And if the policy is in place, then surely Treasury have already approved that spending? So why does Ms Cope sound so evasive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boo Gay'n Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 The phrase 'what goes around, comes around' pops into my mind! https://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-news/callister-prescription-charges-need-complete-review/ Is the cycle to say every five years that "something must be done"? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-isle-of-man-41348242 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apple Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 46 minutes ago, Boo Gay'n said: The phrase 'what goes around, comes around' pops into my mind! https://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-news/callister-prescription-charges-need-complete-review/ Is the cycle to say every five years that "something must be done"? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-isle-of-man-41348242 Old news but it allows them to issue new photographs. Every week there seems to be 'another' reason, news or not, that manages to get Ms Cope in the news. Same with David Ashford. Is it a way of constantly reminding us of their existence ? I bet DA would love to have another crack at DHSC Minister to finish what he started. Project Managers usually like to finish things off themselves in my experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.