IOM DHSC & MANX CARE

[GD4ELI]

7 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Exactly.

Private health care and hospitals are only available for the few and offer limited ranges of treatment.

Arent half the partners at Penryn qualified as vets, half the patients registered being sheep?

Seriously, when I was on twice a week chemo and flying over every Tuesday and Friday, my journey time front door to hospital was less than some of the other patients who were being brought in by ambulance service transport from North Lancashire, South Cumbria or North Wales. And they were no more reliable.

Wouldn't want to do your neck of the woods to Southampton in a patient transport ambulance, twice a week, or even to have to drive myself, receive treatment, then drive home.

My reference to Plymouth and Southampton is for first-rate private care such as hip & knee jobs. yes, down here the health service is stretched due to idiots and COVID, but it is functioning OK. Quite a few ex-Nobles staff here.

I don't mind paying for health care, I think taxation should be increased but the problem is getting people to work in health.

[John Wright]

49 minutes ago, GD4ELI said:

My reference to Plymouth and Southampton is for first-rate private care such as hip & knee jobs. yes, down here the health service is stretched due to idiots and COVID, but it is functioning OK. Quite a few ex-Nobles staff here.

I don't mind paying for health care, I think taxation should be increased but the problem is getting people to work in health.

The Manx health service is working well, by comparison to most of the UK. And for 90% it’s the NHS, not the availability of private care, that counts.

And at least extra  money is being targeted at areas with long waiting lists, bringing in private operators to use nobles facilities to catch up out of usual clinic theatre operating times.

[Reluctantposter]

My partner went into A&E over Christmas with breathing difficulties. Despite all the horror stories on here he was taken straight through and seen almost immediately by various doctors and nurses. His treatment was professional, kind and thorough. He was onto a ward within hours. I was told there was a high chance he was not going to survive. He has, he is now due to be discharged. I cannot thank the extremely busy but always friendly nurses who cared for him enough, the same goes for the doctors, who you don't see as much but who were directing his care. What I witnessed over the last few weeks at Nobles hospital does not resemble one iota what you see happening currently in the UK, if he had waited in an ambulance for several hours he would not have survived. So thank you Nobles.

[wrighty]

4 hours ago, GD4ELI said:

Heard of the private Duchy hospital perhaps? Treliske in Truro? Only a two hour drive to Plymouth, four to Southampton. No bloody boats or planes involved.

Also excellent health care at Penryn surgery.

You've fallen for the fallacy that anything in the UK is better than everything Isle of Man - something that several locals seem to believe, including Tynwald members.

It's not.

You mentioned poor internet here.  What's wrong with it? Mine seems fine.  My son is a computer science graduate and he says my connection in Douglas is better than he gets in York.  I imagine there are parts of Cornwall still on dial up via copper, waiting for BT to install a rudimentary broadband set up, with 4G being a distant pipe dream.  That is certainly the case in some parts of the UK, people moan about it on Radio 4 all the time.

As for health care we're not doing too badly, in comparison with much of the UK.  I'm not saying it couldn't be better, and we obviously don't provide a full range of services locally, but for bread-and-butter healthcare we do OK.  I'm about to fix a fracture, less than 12 hours after the patient hit the deck.  For this type of fracture we average 18 hours.  The UK standard is within 36, which many UK trusts are currently failing to manage. We have staffing issues, in common with everywhere, but right now there are some available beds, and there were zero ambulances queuing outside ED when I came past this morning. How's Truro this morning? How will it be once caravan season starts and turns the A30 into a static park?

[WTF]

15 hours ago, Gladys said:

Agreed, apart from the last bit.  The problem with a national health service is the focus on longevity rather than quality. 

the longer you can keep people alive the more medication sales for big pharma and jobs , somewhere along the way it went from a health service to a health industry.

Edited January 15, 2023 by WTF

[Jarndyce]

57 minutes ago, WTF said:

the longer you can keep people alive the more medication sales for big pharma and jobs , somewhere along the way it went from a health service to a health industry.

Here we go again…patients are only kept alive for the sake of jobs and profit?   You got out of it nicely on the other thread, but I believe this is really what you think.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Jarndyce
One word altered

[WTF]

2 hours ago, Jarndyce said:

Here we go again…patients are only kept alive for the sake of jobs and profit?   You got out of it nicely on the other thread, but I believe this is really what you think.

i didn't get out of anything ,  explain to me the point of keeping somebody with zero quality of life for THEM alive against their wishes. and then tell me who benefits from this.  

[Jarndyce]

1 hour ago, WTF said:

explain to me the point of keeping somebody with zero quality of life for THEM alive against their wishes. and then tell me who benefits from this.  

No point at all, for the patient.   Now, find a front line health care worker, explain to them that, when they do their best for patients every day, they are part of a conspiracy involving jobs and profits for Big Pharma - and let us know the reaction you get.

[wrighty]

4 hours ago, Jarndyce said:

Here we go again…patients are only kept alive for the sake of jobs and profit?   You got out of it nicely on the other thread, but I believe this is really what you think.

 

1 hour ago, WTF said:

i didn't get out of anything ,  explain to me the point of keeping somebody with zero quality of life for THEM alive against their wishes. and then tell me who benefits from this.  

 

36 minutes ago, Jarndyce said:

No point at all, for the patient.   Now, find a front line health care worker, explain to them that, when they do their best for patients every day, they are part of a conspiracy involving jobs and profits for Big Pharma - and let us know the reaction you get.

Well I'm a front line health care worker, and I can see both sides of this argument.  We do treat many people for diseases they don't have based on evidence that, for example, giving 1000 people statins prevents 1 heart attack every year, or something like that. And I can see the point that the 'evidence' is often produced by the pharmaceutical companies themselves, and there have been examples of research being suppressed if it doesn't fit with the narrative or could harm the sales.

Does this extend lives? Almost certainly yes.  Does it improve people's quality of life? Sometimes, sometime not. Can it cause complications, which themselves need treatment - definitely.

But as you say, on the front line these decisions are made for the right reasons.  Nobody is prescribing stuff just to keep themselves in a job.  There may be an ethical dilemma in the profession over quality of life vs extending life for the sake of it (and I'm certainly on the quality over quantity side of the debate), but I'd suggest that almost all of us are in the job to do the right thing for the patients we look after, and not to increase the sales of the drug companies.

[Gladys]

35 minutes ago, wrighty said:

 

 

 

But as you say, on the front line these decisions are made for the right reasons.  Nobody is prescribing stuff just to keep themselves in a job.  There may be an ethical dilemma in the profession over quality of life vs extending life for the sake of it (and I'm certainly on the quality over quantity side of the debate), but I'd suggest that almost all of us are in the job to do the right thing for the patients we look after, and not to increase the sales of the drug companies.

THIS ^^^^^

I agreed with WTF's first post because there is a massive industry behind medical care, but it is not the frontline health workers who are profiteering or even just trying to keep themselves on a job.  It isn't a job, it is a vocation or so many wouldn't do the job, which can be pretty unpleasant, stressful and emotional, for the poor pay they get in comparison, although I am sure the rewards are not financial. 

[Jarndyce]

15 minutes ago, Gladys said:

I agreed with WTF's first post because there is a massive industry behind medical care, but it is not the frontline health workers who are profiteering or even just trying to keep themselves on a job.  It isn't a job, it is a vocation or so many wouldn't do the job, which can be pretty unpleasant, stressful and emotional, for the poor pay they get in comparison, although I am sure the rewards are not financial.

As a former healthcare worker myself, and as my partner died in Hospice, I deeply resented what I saw as WTF’s implication (possibly not on this thread) that healthcare workers were complicit in the inappropriate extension of patients’ lives, in order to keep themselves in jobs.

If I have misunderstood or misrepresented WTF’s intentions by those various statements, then of course I apologise.

[WTF]

1 hour ago, Jarndyce said:

No point at all, for the patient.   Now, find a front line health care worker, explain to them that, when they do their best for patients every day, they are part of a conspiracy involving jobs and profits for Big Pharma - and let us know the reaction you get.

you've jumped too many steps , i agree the people on the frontline do a good job for the right reasons ,    BUT if people weren't kept alive against their own wishes ( wrighty avoided that point )  then some of the palliative care staff could be doing  other nursing duties to the benefit of those capable of living rather than than those wishing to die . it isn't so much a conspiracy as a situation that doesn't have to exist for those that want to die on their own terms , they are forced to suffer whether it be because our laws are intertwined with religion ( imaginary friends )  or whether  relatives can't stand the thought of losing them and would rather they struggled on just delaying the inevitable .  if people want to struggle on  to the bitter end i'm happy for them to do so,  but for those that don't want that being forced to just isn't right. and some people benefit from that.  i'm practical before emotional on most subjects and emotion sometimes brings out the practical on others..

 

nobody has yet explained why every other suffering species we put down,  yet we refuse to do the same for members of our own species that want it for THEMSELVES. ?

Edited January 15, 2023 by WTF

[Gladys]

59 minutes ago, WTF said:

 

 

nobody has yet explained why every other suffering species we put down,  yet we refuse to do the same for members of our own species that want it for THEMSELVES. ?

Because we are God's children and only He can decide when someone lives or dies.  The rest of creation was put there for our use and benefit so we have the power of dominion over them and can decide when they die, for whatever reason.  

That's the religious angle which permeates the debate.  I don't agree, but I do think that all life is sacrosanct, but that should equate to limiting suffering and not prolonging life in pain, be it human or animal. 

I haven't checked, but I am pretty sure suicide was a criminal offence at one time, if not in law it probably was in ecclesiastic law.  (Will have to check.) People should not act like God even in respect of their own life and even if they were in pain, physical or emotional, and should wait until God decided it was your time. 

ETA suicide ceased to be a crime under the Suicide Act 1961.  It is probably the only crime for which only those who failed to properly execute it would be tried  - attempted suicide. Mind you, in the dim and distant past the successful ones probably were tried after death and probably denied a Christian burial.  Doncha just love religion? 

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Gladys

[WTF]

8 minutes ago, Gladys said:

Because we are God's children and only He can decide when someone lives or dies.  The rest of creation was put there for our use and benefit so we have the power of dominion over them and can decide when they die, for whatever reason.  

That's the religious angle which permeates the debate.  I don't agree, but I do think that all life is sacrosanct, but that should equate to limiting suffering and not prolonging life in pain, be it human or animal. 

I haven't checked, but I am pretty sure suicide was a criminal offence at one time, if not in law it probably was in ecclesiastic law.  (Will have to check.) People should not act like God even in respect of their own life and even if they were in pain, physical or emotional, and should wait until God decided it was your time. 

ETA suicide ceased to be a crime under the Suicide Act 1961.  It is probably the only crime for which only those who failed to properly execute it would be tried  - attempted suicide. Mind you, in the dim and distant past the successful ones probably were tried after death and probably denied a Christian burial.  Doncha just love religion? 

 

fuck religion , it's a con used for social control .

[Gladys]

5 minutes ago, WTF said:

fuck religion , it's a con used for social control .

Absolutely, what better means is there?