Numbnuts Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 4 minutes ago, James Blonde said: This isn't automatically a bad thing. We're not going to fix the massive structural issues in the civil service by inviting them all to tea and bein nicey nicey about it. Somebody has to to take an axe too it. Yes its def one way of tackling it . Something needs to be done . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Mexico Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 10 minutes ago, Numbnuts said: Dont disagree with you generally but tell Cannan that !! And if its done as it should be will mean lots of CS jobs would be redundant so will be interesting if he gets CM and to see what happens .Oh and not sure what DOI has done is privatisation just dumped stuff on contractors and failed to oversee the contracts . No privatisation means more civil servants - though some of these may be transferred to the private sector, they are still effectively civil servants if they are working full time on government contracts. It means fewer directly employed manual workers but the monitoring of the contracts means duplication. Look at the way Manx Care's corporatisation has led to loads of extra well-paid roles. The same process operates with full privatisation and it's a myth that private sector bureaucracy will automatically be more efficient than public. It's not always true even in the most competitive circumstances and in a monopoly situation (as things tend to be on the Island) it's usually worse. The DoI's projects aren't technically privatisation, but operate in exactly the same way as privatisation would. If they can't oversee project contracts, they certainly won't be able to cope with long-term ones. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Mexico Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 27 minutes ago, Gladys said: Agreed. There is a difference between managing staff and managing contracts. A good point - though you could argue that many parts of the civil service seem to be equally good at both. 10 minutes ago, James Blonde said: 16 minutes ago, Ham_N_Eggs said: Making a whole pile of civil servants redundant will cause all kinds of issues and force even more people to leave the Island. Not necessarily a bad thing. There are some in the civil service who need to be cleared out. But as numerous Employment Tribunal cases have illustrated, the ones that get cleared out aren't always who should be going. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Blonde Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 34 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said: A good point - though you could argue that many parts of the civil service seem to be equally good at both. But as numerous Employment Tribunal cases have illustrated, the ones that get cleared out aren't always who should be going. Not if the roles are made redundant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramseyboi Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 1 hour ago, hissingsid said: Well we will see on Tuesday who is going forward whoever it is I hope they keep a closer eye on those who award contracts to people who do not deliver….flumes…promenade etc and also sort out planning. The Health service is the biggest concern because it affects everyone. A challenge for whoever gets the job indeed. And there is our problem. People (idiots) vote on things like the flumes! If you think an MHK or a minister had any real input to that then you deserve what you vote for Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hissingsid Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 Surely the Treasury have some say about contracts. I know they were instrumental in getting rid of a very experienced firm who had the contract for taking patients from Liverpool Airport to the different hospitals they found a cheaper quote though not quite as good a service although it has improved. This was presented to the Health Minister, Kate Beecroft, and she went along with it so I think Ministers do have a say although when things don’t work out it suits to let the civil servants carry the can. I may be wrong as I have never been a civil servant or a Minister it would be nice if a Minister would enlighten me as to how much clout they have in deciding who gets a contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finlo Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 9 minutes ago, hissingsid said: Surely the Treasury have some say about contracts. I know they were instrumental in getting rid of a very experienced firm who had the contract for taking patients from Liverpool Airport to the different hospitals they found a cheaper quote though not quite as good a service although it has improved. This was presented to the Health Minister, Kate Beecroft, and she went along with it so I think Ministers do have a say although when things don’t work out it suits to let the civil servants carry the can. I may be wrong as I have never been a civil servant or a Minister it would be nice if a Minister would enlighten me as to how much clout they have in deciding who gets a contract. 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Blonde Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 Things have to change and the Government headcount will have to be culled. The current model is simply unsustainable. Yes, 'the books' may be 'balanced' at the moment but we're about to see ram raids for £30m, £40m, £50m annually to prop up the public sector pension blackhole, we have the £400m that Alfie Cannan has 'borrowed' on the taxpayer's credit card... the global economy is heading for uncertain times - we just can't go on like this. Just because the Unions may not like it isn't a reason not to do something. Government is supposed to be there to serve the people of the Isle of Man. Not as some weird job creation scheme for random reasons. As an island we've had similar discussions for the last 15 years and nothing much has changed, but now the wolf is almost at the door... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finlo Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 8 minutes ago, James Blonde said: Things have to change and the Government headcount will have to be culled. The current model is simply unsustainable. Yes, 'the books' may be 'balanced' at the moment but we're about to see ram raids for £30m, £40m, £50m annually to prop up the public sector pension blackhole, we have the £400m that Alfie Cannan has 'borrowed' on the taxpayer's credit card... the global economy is heading for uncertain times - we just can't go on like this. Just because the Unions may not like it isn't a reason not to do something. Government is supposed to be there to serve the people of the Isle of Man. Not as some weird job creation scheme for random reasons. As an island we've had similar discussions for the last 15 years and nothing much has changed, but now the wolf is almost at the door... Indeed, and it's only been balanced by an annual raid on the reserves! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2112 Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 There is a post on IOMNP Facebook page claiming that some of the new intake of MHK are not going to get involved in Departments as a Minister or a Member. They are intent to sit on the benches and act as a scrutineer of Government. Hope this isn’t true as it will cause chaos and lead to potential issues regarding governance. If there is a lack of MHK to fill vacancies, perhaps the MLCs will be used. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ham_N_Eggs Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 6 hours ago, 2112 said: There is a post on IOMNP Facebook page claiming that some of the new intake of MHK are not going to get involved in Departments as a Minister or a Member. They are intent to sit on the benches and act as a scrutineer of Government. Hope this isn’t true as it will cause chaos and lead to potential issues regarding governance. If there is a lack of MHK to fill vacancies, perhaps the MLCs will be used. There have been too many people on Departments in the Keys and it actually leads to a lack of governance. Keys Members were only recruited into Departments to ensure they get their vote and as a reward they were paid extra. There is now no extra cash for being a Departmental member. This means they can actually do the job we pay the bulk of their wages for: improving legislation; holding the government / civil service to account; and representing their constituents. It's a good thing. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Blonde Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 7 hours ago, 2112 said: There is a post on IOMNP Facebook page claiming that some of the new intake of MHK are not going to get involved in Departments as a Minister or a Member. They are intent to sit on the benches and act as a scrutineer of Government. Hope this isn’t true as it will cause chaos and lead to potential issues regarding governance. If there is a lack of MHK to fill vacancies, perhaps the MLCs will be used. I hope it is true. For too long they've all had their hands tied with 'departmental responsibility' so everything gets nodded through like donkeys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTF Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 8 hours ago, James Blonde said: Government is supposed to be there to serve the people of the Isle of Man. Not as some weird job creation scheme for random reasons. getting your kids on the gravy train isn't random. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747-400 Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 9 hours ago, 2112 said: There is a post on IOMNP Facebook page claiming that some of the new intake of MHK are not going to get involved in Departments as a Minister or a Member. They are intent to sit on the benches and act as a scrutineer of Government. Hope this isn’t true as it will cause chaos and lead to potential issues regarding governance. If there is a lack of MHK to fill vacancies, perhaps the MLCs will be used. I thought we had MLCs to scrutinise. We need MHKs that are willing to step up and lead. I trust any newly elected MHK did not deceive their voters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 40 minutes ago, 747-400 said: I thought we had MLCs to scrutinise. We need MHKs that are willing to step up and lead. I trust any newly elected MHK did not deceive their voters Just because the "MLC's scrutinise" myth has been promoted in recent years to continue the existence of this preposterous body, doesn't mean the Keys can skive off their main job and arse around doing busy work in departments when they should be representing the people who voted them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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