DoI not fit for purpose

[Gladys]

Has the outcome of the MER tram crash last year been published yet? 

[Roger Mexico]

41 minutes ago, asitis said:

It's potentially criminal Andy if someone has misrepresented their qualifications, and thus obtained a salary at a higher point than unqualified. Theft Act .... obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception.

You wonder whether the question in this week's Keys from Moorhouse that I linked to earlier in the week was related to this sort of situation.  Clearly people have been informing OHR that certain people may have been appointed who are not as qualified as they claimed to be and the information is being ignored.

[ellanvannin2010]

36 minutes ago, Gladys said:

Has the outcome of the MER tram crash last year been published yet? 

I am not sure they ever "publish" them as such, you might need to ask.

 

[Ghost Ship]

1 hour ago, Max Power said:

I'm sure that you will have experienced government HR staff during your tenure? I don't think I need say more, other than that I am sure they don't pick them for any HR skills that they may have! 

When I joined the NHS in the late 1980s (just before Thatcher introduced the internal market etc etc) Personnel Departments in hospitals and health authorities were staffed by generally well meaning but ineffectual people whose purpose was to be nice to staff, keep them happy and to stop ancillary staff (as they were then called) from going on strike.

By the time I left (and for at least the 15 - 20 years before then) their sole responsibility seemed to be to facilitate the removal of underperforming employees in as effective and legal manner as possible, and to try to ensure that there would be no negative comeback on the organisation as a result of getting rid of those employees.  Quite a straightforward job if you know what you are doing.

And while you don't need to be a unpleasant person to do the job properly (in fact one of the most effective managers and nicest people I ever worked with was a HR Director - but he did not suffer fools gladly!) I'm sure it might help.  Certainly three of the peole I do not miss working with were senior HR managers.

How effective and competent public sector HR managers are in the Isle of Man, I don't know.  But I'd have to say I was singularly unimpressed by that case last year where a Douglas Corporation streetcleaner had been stranded in Cyprus (or somewhere like that) because of Covid and ended up taking the corporation to a tribunal because of how they had treated him in his absence.  I was astonished that the corporation had allowed that situation to develop in the first place abd had then allowed it to reach a tribunal.  How did that happen?

Effective HR management isn't about getting rid of just anybody indiscriminately without good reason, or about getting rid of the right people for the wrong reasons.  It's about getting rid of the right people for the right reasons.  To come up with effective HR strategies to manage underperforming senior staff is not a task as difficult as re-inventing calculus.

Slightly off-topic perhaps, but I'll mention it here as it may be relevant.  If I were responsible for recruiting senior civil servants in the Isle of Man, there is one quetion I would ask all non-Manx* candidates.  And that would be:  "Why do you want to come and work in the Isle of Man - which might seem a bit of a back-water to some people - rather than progress your career in the UK?"  And if they didn't have a really convincing answer, they'd go no further. 

(Isn't there enough home-grown talent on the Isle of Man anyway?)

 

*I don't know what the current discrimination/equality legislation on the IoM is.  I suppose asking only non-Manx candidates could be seen as discriminatory, but I would argue it's still a perfectly valid question to ask. Could ask them all to make sure you were "being seen to be doing the right thing"...

Edited January 28, 2022 by Ghost Ship

[GD4ELI]

6 minutes ago, Ghost Ship said:

When I joined the NHS in the late 1980s (just before Thatcher introduced the internal market etc etc) Personnel Departments in hospitals and health authorities were staffed by generally well meaning but ineffectual people whose purpose was to be nice to staff, keep them happy and to stop ancillary staff (as they were then called) from going on strike.

By the time I left (and for at least the 15 - 20 years before then) their sole responsibility seemed to be to facilitate the removal of underperforming employees in as effective and legal manner as possible, and to try to ensure that there would be no negative comeback on the organisation as a result of getting rid of those employees.  Quite a straightforward job if you know what you are doing.

And while you don't need to be a unpleasant person to do the job properly (in fact one of the most effective managers and nicest people I ever worked with was a HR Director - but he did not suffer fools gladly!) I'm sure it might help.  Certainly three of the peole I do not miss working with were senior HR managers.

How effective and competent public sector HR managers are in the Isle of Man, I don't know.  But I'd have to say I was singularly unimpressed by that case last year where a Douglas Corporation streetcleaner had been stranded in Cyprus (or somewhere like that) because of Covid and ended up taking the corporation to a tribunal because of how they had treated him in his absence.  I was astonished that the corporation had allowed that situation to develop in the first place abd had then allowed it to reach a tribunal.  How did that happen?

Effective HR management isn't about getting rid of just anybody indiscriminately without good reason, or about getting rid of the right people for the wrong reasons.  It's about getting rid of the right people for the right reasons.  To come up with effective HR strategies to manage underperforming senior staff is not a task as difficult as re-inventing calculus.

Slightly off-topic perhaps, but I'll mention it here as it may be relevant.  If I were responsible for recruiting senior civil servants in the Isle of Man, there is one quetion I would ask all non-Manx* candidates.  And that would be:  "Why do you want to come and work in the Isle of Man - which might seem a bit of a back-water to some people - rather than progress your career in the UK?"  And if they didn't have a really convincing answer, they'd go no further. 

(Isn't there enough home-grown talent on the Isle of Man anyway?)

 

*I don't know what the current discrimination/equality legislation on the IoM is.  I suppose asking only non-Manx candidates could be seen as discriminatory, but I would argue it's still a perfectly valid question to ask. Could ask them all to make sure you were "being seen to be doing the right thing"...

That's "Saint Margaret of Grantham" to you, spotty Herbert.

[Boris Johnson]

15 minutes ago, Ghost Ship said:

When I joined the NHS in the late 1980s (just before Thatcher introduced the internal market etc etc) Personnel Departments in hospitals and health authorities were staffed by generally well meaning but ineffectual people whose purpose was to be nice to staff, keep them happy and to stop ancillary staff (as they were then called) from going on strike.

By the time I left (and for at least the 15 - 20 years before then) their sole responsibility seemed to be to facilitate the removal of underperforming employees in as effective and legal manner as possible, and to try to ensure that there would be no negative comeback on the organisation as a result of getting rid of those employees.  Quite a straightforward job if you know what you are doing.

And while you don't need to be a unpleasant person to do the job properly (in fact one of the most effective managers and nicest people I ever worked with was a HR Director - but he did not suffer fools gladly!) I'm sure it might help.  Certainly three of the peole I do not miss working with were senior HR managers.

How effective and competent public sector HR managers are in the Isle of Man, I don't know.  But I'd have to say I was singularly unimpressed by that case last year where a Douglas Corporation streetcleaner had been stranded in Cyprus (or somewhere like that) because of Covid and ended up taking the corporation to a tribunal because of how they had treated him in his absence.  I was astonished that the corporation had allowed that situation to develop in the first place abd had then allowed it to reach a tribunal.  How did that happen?

Effective HR management isn't about getting rid of just anybody indiscriminately without good reason, or about getting rid of the right people for the wrong reasons.  It's about getting rid of the right people for the right reasons.  To come up with effective HR strategies to manage underperforming senior staff is not a task as difficult as re-inventing calculus.

Slightly off-topic perhaps, but I'll mention it here as it may be relevant.  If I were responsible for recruiting senior civil servants in the Isle of Man, there is one quetion I would ask all non-Manx* candidates.  And that would be:  "Why do you want to come and work in the Isle of Man - which might seem a bit of a back-water to some people - rather than progress your career in the UK?"  And if they didn't have a really convincing answer, they'd go no further. 

(Isn't there enough home-grown talent on the Isle of Man anyway?)

 

*I don't know what the current discrimination/equality legislation on the IoM is.  I suppose asking only non-Manx candidates could be seen as discriminatory, but I would argue it's still a perfectly valid question to ask. Could ask them all to make sure you were "being seen to be doing the right thing"...

I think the DOI got some off island HR guys to start at sorting out the highways side of DOI but they quietly disappeared and haven't been replaced.

I spoke to one of them and he was staggered at some of the working practices caused by poor management. He actually said it was like the UK was in the 70s which ties in with what you are saying.

[Ghost Ship]

I might not disagree with you ( @GD4ELI ).  In recent years I have adopted a revisionist view on Thatcher.  I'm not sure she was half as bad as I thought at the time.

And having worked in the NHS under both Tory and Labour governments I can assure anybody labouring under the delusion that the NHS was better off under Labour, that it is precisely that - a delusion based on an ideological point of view.  And I used to be a proper socialist.

But enough of the non-Manx politics.  We should let the locals get back to their promenade; TT course maintenance; the half-arsed Liverpool dock project etc    😄

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by Ghost Ship

[asitis]

40 minutes ago, Ghost Ship said:

lightly off-topic perhaps, but I'll mention it here as it may be relevant.  If I were responsible for recruiting senior civil servants in the Isle of Man, there is one quetion I would ask all non-Manx* candidates.  And that would be:  "Why do you want to come and work in the Isle of Man - which might seem a bit of a back-water to some people - rather than progress your career in the UK?"  And if they didn't have a really convincing answer, they'd go no further. 

Absolutely, somehow we have recruited some dross here who have been dumped elsewhere ! or are utterly incompetent.

[Ghost Ship]

11 minutes ago, asitis said:

Absolutely, somehow we have recruited some dross here who have been dumped elsewhere ! or are utterly incompetent.

I know somebody (non-Manx) who for personal reasons expressed an interest in a well paid professional post at Douglas BC several years ago that had been advertised in professional journals in the UK.  The person I knew was more than eminently well qualified to do the job and had 20+ years relevant experience.  

They looked into it quite closely and came very close to applying, but then...  "I can't apply for this.  It's a non-job in some dead-end authority with no way out afterwards.  I can't do this at this stage of my career - it would destroy it.  If I wanted an easy life and nothing difficult it might be a different matter, but I'd prefer something more challenging right now."

And I think that sort of demonstrates the risks of employing off-Island people in senior and other difficult and demanding roles.  I have no doubt the person in question would have done an excellent job - as evidenced by their subsequent career - but they couldn't see the point in applying.

Of course I'm not saying that the IoM govt should NEVER employ people from off-Island.  I'm just saying they should be very skeptical of people who want to re-locate there without very good reason.

And as I said on another thread, I can't believe that in many cases Manx candidates would not do a better job.  I spent a year working for the IoM CS after my first degree and as I seem to recall, most heads of departments (or "boards" or whatever they were called) were Manx.  The only exception I can think of was William Dawson as Treasurer.  I think Peter Hulme(?) was Chief Secretary but don't know if he was Manx.  Wasn't the last Chief Secretary before one Fred Kissack?  Where are the Manx people?

 

[finlo]

14 minutes ago, Ghost Ship said:

I know somebody (non-Manx) who for personal reasons expressed an interest in a well paid professional post at Douglas BC several years ago that had been advertised in professional journals in the UK.  The person I knew was more than eminently well qualified to do the job and had 20+ years relevant experience.  

They looked into it quite closely and came very close to applying, but then...  "I can't apply for this.  It's a non-job in some dead-end authority with no way out afterwards.  I can't do this at this stage of my career - it would destroy it.  If I wanted an easy life and nothing difficult it might be a different matter, but I'd prefer something more challenging right now."

And I think that sort of demonstrates the risks of employing off-Island people in senior and other difficult and demanding roles.  I have no doubt the person in question would have done an excellent job - as evidenced by their subsequent career - but they couldn't see the point in applying.

Of course I'm not saying that the IoM govt should NEVER employ people from off-Island.  I'm just saying they should be very skeptical of people who want to re-locate there without very good reason.

And as I said on another thread, I can't believe that in many cases Manx candidates would not do a better job.  I spent a year working for the IoM CS after my first degree and as I seem to recall, most heads of departments (or "boards" or whatever they were called) were Manx.  The only exception I can think of was William Dawson as Treasurer.  I think Peter Hulme(?) was Chief Secretary but don't know if he was Manx.  Wasn't the last Chief Secretary before one Fred Kissack?  Where are the Manx people?

 

 

[Ghost Ship]

Bit too cryptic for me but are you suggesting Manx candidates get overlooked because of the actions of some English "mafia" or English old boy network in the civil service?

Who appoints senior civil servants?  Isn't it politicians?  Or is the problem that Manx politicians believe English and other UK candidates are more able than Manx ones?

Or, perhaps more likely, (  😉 ) is the problem that Manx politicians don't want to be surrounded by civil servants who might be more able than them and show them up?!?!

[Trackman]

Great innovative thinking here on the Coast Road at Glen Wyllin. It's the same piece of road, but 40mph limit going away from the danger of Glen Wyllin crossroads and 30mph limit approaching the danger. 

[Two-lane]

On 1/28/2022 at 1:37 PM, Gladys said:

Has the outcome of the MER tram crash last year been published yet? 

UK rail accidents are investigated by the Rail Accident Investigation Branch, which has a duty to publish its reports.

I do not know which body investigates rail accidents here, but I suspect they are not required to publish them.

( I made a FoI request for the report into an accident in which a crew member received permanent injuries. The request was denied because the report contains people's names. Compare that to the Shoreham air-crash where the AAIB published its report well before the pilot was in court)

 

[asitis]

3 hours ago, Two-lane said:

UK rail accidents are investigated by the Rail Accident Investigation Branch, which has a duty to publish its reports.

I do not know which body investigates rail accidents here, but I suspect they are not required to publish them.

( I made a FoI request for the report into an accident in which a crew member received permanent injuries. The request was denied because the report contains people's names. Compare that to the Shoreham air-crash where the AAIB published its report well before the pilot was in court)

 

Aviation is a whole different ethos to incident reporting, where transparency is encouraged, and prompt reporting used to avoid similar incidents. Contrasted with the above and indeed medicine !

[Two-lane]

3 minutes ago, asitis said:

Aviation is a whole different ethos to incident reporting, where transparency is encouraged, and prompt reporting used to avoid similar incidents. Contrasted with the above and indeed medicine !

A fast Internet search shows that the UK has three AIBs - Air, Marine and Rail. They have a common e.g.  Memorandum of Understanding between themselves and the CPS, which is:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/927019/MOU_AIB_CPS_FINAL_signed_by_CPS+AIBs.pdf

My annoyance is that there is no reason why the IoM gov. should not comply with best practice in the UK in regard to transport safety. In the case of rail accidents it does not, and the only reason is that the gov. (i.e. both politicians and civil servants) don't think that it would be in their personal interest to do so. Passenger safety is not relevant.

It should be a "no brainer" for the IoM to comply - but it won't.