Manx footballers racially abused.

[wrighty]

5 minutes ago, Declan said:

Only if one doesn't know the etymology of "willy-nilly", Wrighty. 

Knowledge, or ignorance, of etymology is no defence. Remember that MP who got criticised for using ‘Niggardly’?

[HeliX]

5 minutes ago, wrighty said:

Knowledge, or ignorance, of etymology is no defence. Remember that MP who got criticised for using ‘Niggardly’?

How long ago? Can't see anything online about it.

[wrighty]

6 minutes ago, HeliX said:

How long ago? Can't see anything online about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_the_word_niggardly
 

Not an MP, I misremembered (although I’m sure Jacob Rees Mogg has done similar)

[Lost Login]

5 hours ago, hissingsid said:

All over the Nations Station this morning .The man in charge of diversity has sent out a questionnaire to Manx footballers asking them if they have had any experience of racial abuse.  I think it was 29% said yes, that figure is open to correction as the dog was whining at the time.   Now what constitutes racial abuse apart from the obvious racist horrible taunts.   Does Douglas butty, or Govag or Paddy etc count because it needs defined as serious or banter.   When I was young the referee got the most abuse usually being accused of being blind.   What do you all think I despise fans who are aggressively racist and do it to distract the players but footy matches without a bit of banter ?

If the question was to non white footballers I would surprised that it was as low as 29% as I expect that abuse is handed out to virtually all players on a pitch, and a lot more to referees. Much abuse is probably in the heat of a moment and probably said with little thought so whilst it should not be acceptable, and especially not racial, homophobic abuse, it is probably not a true reflection of peoples views.

Yes there will be some who go out to abuse somebody just because of their sexuality or colour of there skin, but I hope that most don't and that most abuse is a simple reaction said with little thought. I would not do so now as I have grown up and know better ways to respond but also realise  the offense it causes but in my younger days if I was given a mouthful of abuse I would have given it straight back. It you were overweight, wore glasses then that probably would have been referred to so I am pretty sure I would have used racial and homophobic slurs in other cases. An Welsh opponent would have been a sheep shagger, an Irish opponent a think Mick or Paddy. It is and was not acceptable but I think we have to be careful to realise that not all racial or homophobic abuse, whilst unacceptable, is handed out because the person saying it is intrinsically racist.

We need to try and cut it all out but also I think we do need to treat those who say something in the heat of a moment without thinking differently to those who go out with the intention of airing their unacceptable views.  

  

[Numbnuts]

In my early days playing football over here there was definately racist issues but at the time the perception was it was normal and acceptable . Clearly it wasn't then and now you would be in serious trouble for using some of the terms which in those days was just explained off as banter. A real character who played for St Georges years ago was a real butt of lots of these comments and was many a issue I'm told when he reacted to some of the comments. Had three young people involved in a sport I was in and they had a hard time in school because of the Caribbean roots . Can we even say 'roots' ??? I truly dont know . There is some real gob shights over here who will always jump on the 'he's different angle ' but thankfully most now are accepting of the many nationalities and colour of their skin . 

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Numbnuts

[HeliX]

3 minutes ago, Numbnuts said:

Can we even say 'roots' ??? I truly dont know

Yes, so long as you're not addressing someone who hasn't been able to get to their hairdresser over lockdown.

[HeliX]

18 minutes ago, wrighty said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_the_word_niggardly
 

Not an MP, I misremembered (although I’m sure Jacob Rees Mogg has done similar)

Thanks, doesn't seem to justify the level of concern you have over how your writings will be interpreted in the future though. It's not like words were newly deemed racist and punished retroactively, the words were always racist, just nobody gave a shit about racism apparently.

[Declan]

14 minutes ago, Lost Login said:

If the question was to non white footballers I would surprised that it was as low as 29% as I expect that abuse is handed out to virtually all players on a pitch, and a lot more to referees. Much abuse is probably in the heat of a moment and probably said with little thought so whilst it should not be acceptable, and especially not racial, homophobic abuse, it is probably not a true reflection of peoples views.

  

This gives more info - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-isle-of-man-59335831

It "found 29% of the coaches, referees, parents and fans who responded said they had seen or experienced racism." I know (long ago) when I played I would have answered that question yes. 

Of the (admittedly low number of) non-white respondents the figure was 56%. 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Declan

[thommo2010]

11 minutes ago, Lost Login said:

If the question was to non white footballers I would surprised that it was as low as 29% as I expect that abuse is handed out to virtually all players on a pitch, and a lot more to referees. Much abuse is probably in the heat of a moment and probably said with little thought so whilst it should not be acceptable, and especially not racial, homophobic abuse, it is probably not a true reflection of peoples views.

Yes there will be some who go out to abuse somebody just because of their sexuality or colour of there skin, but I hope that most don't and that most abuse is a simple reaction said with little thought. I would not do so now as I have grown up and know better ways to respond but also realise  the offense it causes but in my younger days if I was given a mouthful of abuse I would have given it straight back. It you were overweight, wore glasses then that probably would have been referred to so I am pretty sure I would have used racial and homophobic slurs in other cases. An Welsh opponent would have been a sheep shagger, an Irish opponent a think Mick or Paddy. It is and was not acceptable but I think we have to be careful to realise that not all racial or homophobic abuse, whilst unacceptable, is handed out because the person saying it is intrinsically racist.

We need to try and cut it all out but also I think we do need to treat those who say something in the heat of a moment without thinking differently to those who go out with the intention of airing their unacceptable views.  

  

But did you really hate the English or was it something that others said and you went a long with it? Same with your descriptions of the Irish etc was it said out if malice or just what was said at the time? 

 

I may be wrong but racism for me is when you hurt or stop people progressing because of their race. 

[Numbnuts]

5 minutes ago, thommo2010 said:

But did you really hate the English or was it something that others said and you went a long with it? Same with your descriptions of the Irish etc was it said out if malice or just what was said at the time? 

 

I may be wrong but racism for me is when you hurt or stop people progressing because of their race. 

You make very good points. I've worked with many Irish and you ripped into them because thats what you do and equally they expected it. And gave as good or worse back . Same with the Welsh . Not so much with the Scots as usually you couldn't understand them 🙂 .Worked with a few from Glasgow at the early days of the power station and hard to understand but salt of the earth .Bit like the 'all Manx are lazy' generalisation which Irish particulary would throw at you regularly till you won them over .And back then you didnt probably know the word racist never mind the meaning . Personally if England are playing any other Celtic nation then sorry I'm supporting the Celts . Its what you grew up doing and nothing to do with hating English. Although quite a few in Parliament I could easily hate .  

[wrighty]

20 minutes ago, HeliX said:

It's not like words were newly deemed racist and punished retroactively, the words were always racist

But this is exactly what happens. Terms and usage change. And it doesn’t seem to be an acceptable excuse that “It was 1976” or whatever. 
 

Try this one 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wog
 

Used in parliament in the past, used in Australia today and less offensive than here. 
 

And in a connected but slightly different area, how about the term “Mongoloid idiot”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_idiocy

Racist and offensive, but in use in the 1980s, although officially abandoned in the 1960s. 
 

I’m uncomfortable with historical posts on social media being used against people, and not being judged in the context of the time they were made. 

[HeliX]

5 minutes ago, wrighty said:

I’m uncomfortable with historical posts on social media being used against people, and not being judged in the context of the time they were made. 

Me too, but as I think your post demonstrates, it's not like you can accidentally fall into this trap while saying something inoffensive. It's when saying something we already know is racist/bigoted.

[doc.fixit]

An English friend of mine totally rejects being English, he can't stand them. Does that make him racist? (whatever that means).

[HeliX]

2 minutes ago, Roxanne said:

If someone has neither the skills nor the knowledge at a particular point in time, but learns and adapts as they grow - isn’t that something to be applauded rather than punished?

Sure, if that's actually what happened. But how many of these people don't have the skills nor knowledge to understand that calling people "pakis" or saying "Jews are all like that" (or words to that effect) is bad?

[Lost Login]

25 minutes ago, thommo2010 said:

But did you really hate the English or was it something that others said and you went a long with it? Same with your descriptions of the Irish etc was it said out if malice or just what was said at the time? 

I may be wrong but racism for me is when you hurt or stop people progressing because of their race. 

I was trying to make the point, fairly inelegantly, that whilst we need to stop abuse whether it be racial, sexual etc we also need to stop tagging somebody who unthinkingly in the heat of the moment says something wrong and stupid as racist. homophobic etc when they are anything but. Yes they need to apologise and learn from their actions but there is no need to tar them as a person who has abhorrent views. 

As for your view that "racism for me is when you hurt or stop people progressing because of their race" I think it is more than that. You have people who are overtly racist but I think there are plenty, from an older generation, who would not consider themselves as racist and not act in a way you describe but will try and argue that there is no longer an issue and try to dismiss the arguments of others often by simply refusing to or deliberately miss understanding a point. If you are trying to cling to attitudes of the past with regard to racism and what is acceptable I think that would be covered but lower down the scale. Like most things there are degrees and not all our views will coincide. 

I would like to think that I am not racist and certainly I would not abuse somebody because of there race, dislike them or treat them any differently but, and it is difficult to admit, I certainly do have pre-conceived views about certain races, nationalities etc which ideally I should not have.