The Phantom Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 6 minutes ago, winnie said: Thanks. It's nice to get information from someone 'in the trade'. Would it be too expensive to pipe it to the IOM and transport via ship? I imagine the IOM loading is quite high to run the power station and gas service, so not sure how much would be transported off Island. As there are already pipes and gas fields crossing the Irish sea and realistically it's not that far, it would probably be most cost effective to send all the gas via these rather than using any shipping to transport it. But I've not seen any of the costs or plans for any of this once it is out of the ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omobono Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 The Morecambe Bay gas field is quite close by ,any gas found in Manx waters could be transported to the UK via that existing network the royalties generated , could be used to develop other forms of green energy ,and provide a support package of existing energy users by way of a subsidy , 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happier diner Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 1 hour ago, The Phantom said: As there are already pipes and gas fields crossing the Irish sea and realistically it's not that far, it would probably be most cost effective to send all the gas via these rather than using any shipping to transport it. But I've not seen any of the costs or plans for any of this once it is out of the ground. The pipes crossing the Irish sea are for processed gas. They are not bidirectional 1 hour ago, Omobono said: The Morecambe Bay gas field is quite close by ,any gas found in Manx waters could be transported to the UK via that existing network the royalties generated , could be used to develop other forms of green energy ,and provide a support package of existing energy users by way of a subsidy , Such things sound easy if you say them quickly However the Engineering is enormous. Running an undersea pipe to Morecambe? Probably in the order of £50M just for starters and a few years in the planning. Unless this field is absolutely massive then such things would make it unviable surely Everything is possible of course. But we shouldn't kid ourselves anything is simple nor cheap. Perhaps we are getting carried away with ourselves! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omobono Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 the pipeline already runs from the Morecambe bay field to the UK mainly to generate electricity you can see the flare burning some nights , it will be just a few miles from the Manx territorial limit . if they don't use this link to transport the gas then the only other way would be to bring it ashore on the isle of Man , pipe it across the island to Kirk Michael where the Irish pipeline comes ashore and pump it into that gas network , then we could utilise the gas here in our network , going to be big bucks what ever happens , ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happier diner Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 9 minutes ago, Omobono said: the pipeline already runs from the Morecambe bay field to the UK mainly to generate electricity you can see the flare burning some nights , it will be just a few miles from the Manx territorial limit . if they don't use this link to transport the gas then the only other way would be to bring it ashore on the isle of Man , pipe it across the island to Kirk Michael where the Irish pipeline comes ashore and pump it into that gas network , then we could utilise the gas here in our network , going to be big bucks what ever happens , ! mmm?! Like I say anything is possible. Whatever the chosen option (if viable gas is actually found) is going to be complex and expensive Its worth noting that our gas at Kirk Michael is at super high pressure and therefore this is not a suitable point to 'pump in' Gas is very difficult to shift. There is a high friction element. That's why gas pipes are so big compared to say water pipes. To push gas all the way to Ireland (and here) requires very high pressures (150bar (2100psi) I think) and very strong pipes that are very expensive. You then need step down pressure using pressure reducing stations. I reckon best you could hope for delivered within 5 years would be a platform that received and processed gas and then pumped into a ship and shifted here to put in the low pressure network directly. Such a thing would not be life changing for everyone. https://www.manxutilities.im/about-us/our-assets/electricity/gas-system/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 There are three options. Extracting and pumping into a tanker and taking to UK ( or IRL ) and treating it there before putting into the gas transmission system. Extracting and pumping through a pipe connecting to the Morecambe Bay pipes to take on shore and treating it there before putting into the gas transmission system. Extracting, pumping on shore through a new pipe to a treatment station on the IoM before cleaning and preparing and pressurising for transmission to UK or IRL via the existing interconnector. None of them is cheap. I think I’ve listed them from cheapest to most expensive. There’ll be a huge planning enquiry and it’ll be slow and there’ll be legal challenges. When natural gas comes up from the ground it often comes with oil, water and other contaminants, liquids or gases such as alkanes, nitrogen, helium, carbon dioxide, sulphur, water vapor, propane, butane, pentanes and hydrogen sulphide. Its cleaned by gravitational and cryogenic ( at -85°C ) separation, Then it has to be liquefied if it’s to be transported by sea, or highly pressurised to be pumped through an interconnector. Expensive, technical, large, intrusive plant that needs skilled operatives and carries risk of pollution. Cant see any option pumping commercially for at least 5 years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0bserver Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 21 minutes ago, John Wright said: Extracting, pumping on shore through a new pipe to a treatment station on the IoM before cleaning and preparing and pressurising for transmission to UK or IRL via the existing interconnector. It needs to be onshored to the IOM so that some of the lovely sticky VAT can be applied to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 3 minutes ago, 0bserver said: It needs to be onshored to the IOM so that some of the lovely sticky VAT can be applied to it. Nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0bserver Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 5 minutes ago, John Wright said: Nope. That was literally what Robershaw and his Crogga Posse said was needed if IOM was to benefit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 16 minutes ago, 0bserver said: It needs to be onshored to the IOM so that some of the lovely sticky VAT can be applied to it. 13 minutes ago, John Wright said: Nope. Let me expand. 1. if it’s exported to IRL from IoM after treatment there is no VAT. It’s zero rated. 2. as long as it’s produced in Manx territorial waters and piped/shipped from there the VAT is collected ( by either UK or IoM ) and put into the common pot. Then it’s divvied up. The gas will of course increase IoM GDP so we will get a slightly larger share of the cake. 3. Hydrocarbon duty isn’t pooled, so IoM could impose and collect that. We had exactly the same discussion and explanation on 6 June, earlier in this thread. The VAT is charged where it’s consumed, not where it’s produced, and FERSA applies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0bserver Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 4 minutes ago, John Wright said: Let me expand. 1. if it’s exported to IRL from IoM after treatment there is no VAT. It’s zero rated. 2. as long as it’s produced in Manx territorial waters and piped/shipped from there the VAT is collected ( by either UK or IoM ) and put into the common pot. Then it’s divvied up. The gas will of course increase IoM GDP so we will get a slightly larger share of the cake. 3. Hydrocarbon duty isn’t pooled, so IoM could impose and collect that. Cheers. Does it make any difference if the cleaning/scrubbing of the gas is done on IOM in terms of VAT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 5 minutes ago, 0bserver said: Cheers. Does it make any difference if the cleaning/scrubbing of the gas is done on IOM in terms of VAT? VAT applies where it’s consumed, not produced. As I say, you’re going over old ground. We had the identical discussion on 6 June. There May be a cash flow advantage, but under FERSA it makes no difference at the end of day. There isn’t a hydro carbon exception in FERSA 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted November 3, 2022 Share Posted November 3, 2022 Crogga had a meeting with Garff Commissioners and have answered some of the queries that have been raised here: They're looking to do test drills next summer. Aiming to start full commercial extraction in 2026. The licence expires in 2048 so that the Isle can hit the 2050 net zero target. The gas would either be piped into the current system between Scotland via IOM to Ireland or it would be shipped as LPG to Barrow or other UK port. It's not intended to be shipped onto IOM shores. Surface rigs for the initial drilling and occasional maintenance, but most of the time gas would be extracted from subsea manifolds and there would be no equipment visible on the surface. Oh and it's been cheesily named the 'Independence Well'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopek Posted November 3, 2022 Share Posted November 3, 2022 If the gas doesn't come onto the Island but rather goes to the UK distribution network, how would we receive preferential price rates that are promised? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happier diner Posted November 3, 2022 Share Posted November 3, 2022 1 hour ago, Kopek said: If the gas doesn't come onto the Island but rather goes to the UK distribution network, how would we receive preferential price rates that are promised? Maybe the gas that we are not getting is very cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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